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DONT MAKE SUMMONING 120

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Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Simple as this. I see the newest poll is proposing another 120 skill. I am appalled by the sheer discontent within jagex. How can you be saying that you don't want to perk out 120 capes due to moving the goal post, and then ask if we want another 120 skill less than a month after?

120 slayer makes sense, because the whole skill is useful throughout. You build up by killing monsters, which change in difficulty every few levels. Then the best training methods become the highest levelled mobs. Meaning, that if you were to increase the cap to 120 on slayer, we just get access to a faster method to gain xp.

It completely different with summoning. We have familiars which nobody ever uses throughout the skill. They are in majority. Once you reach 99, there are only a handful that are useful (mostly those that boost skills levels, carry items or increase your combat abilities). The skill is already complete, and there is nothing more that needs to be added. The only way you should think of improving it, is by looking at each individual familiar already released, and make their abilities better. There is absolutely no reason to raise the cap to 120.

I am extremely opposed to the idea. I would also like to show my discontent towards the polling in general. I barely had any updates proposed by jagex that I want to be implemented into the game. If they ran out of idea, look at osrs, and implement the best features to rs3 if you need to.

If you are opposed to the idea of 120 summoning, voice your concern. We don't need to raise the cap on skills which just need a little polishing up.

22-May-2018 12:01:03 - Last edited on 22-May-2018 12:05:00 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Its not fast. You have to factor in the time it takes to collect charms. Since we were promised that skills would not go to 120, there was no point in doing so after 99. So you can't say that people at 120 slayer should have enough charms for 120 summoning.

Further, we are in a state of economy where there is too much money to spend and not too many items to spend them on (thanks invention). 120 summoning is going to be another items sink. Only a portion will be offset by the cost of shards.

And finally, we already have 99 levels worth of familiars. Most are not used. Looking at 120 slayer, I doubt we will get anything worthwhile to use. Knowing jagex, it will be another 5% buff to whatever skill they deem fit at a cost of 100m to obtain. Most likely we are gonna get 2 new sprites with 10 different colours to fill 100-120 gap. They will become the new meta for slayer and bossing while old 99 familiars will be obsolete. But in turn, they will not provide such a massive benefit as yaks, unicorns or steel titans did on release.

Tell me again why is the skill not complete already and why should it be raised? There is so much uncertainty in the poll, that I am more than certain we will not be getting anything more but a devaluation of a 1-99 summoning in the first place.

This is the issue with raising skills to 120, and this is exactly why people don't want jagex to raise the cap in the first place. Time and time again we are told that it will not happen. Time and time again we are told "sorry, but we don't want to move the goal post to 120, lets just keep it cosmetic". So just do it. Keep it cosmetic and invent new skills to train. Start working on other massive projects we suggested.

I hate summoning skill, and its training method. So why do you think I would ever support it to go up to 120? I don't want people to suffer even to 99.

24-May-2018 16:57:11

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:


All of this pretty much could be used against slayer as well yet they still made that 120.

Thus just because it might take a while to get to 120, still doesnt mean it shouldnt get raised.


Never said I agreed with 120 slayer. It made sense to raise it, but it wasn't too successful, considering the number of slayer creatures actually added being disproportionate to the amount of extra grind we are required to do.

There are much better suggestions for large updates than to just raise the cap on a skill nobody has issues with. We are gonna open the pandora's box and make all skills 120, calling it new content. But it will be the same exact content as before, that not everybody enjoys.

25-May-2018 02:58:47

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Konota said:
Tom Grey said:
Further, we are in a state of economy where there is too much money to spend and not too many items to spend them on (thanks invention). 120 summoning is going to be another items sink. Only a portion will be offset by the cost of shards.

Nice. The more sinks, the better.

Tom Grey said:
Its not fast. You have to factor in the time it takes to collect charms.

Konota said:
And since people have to get 120 slayer for their comp capes, they should have enough charms anyway or close to.

^


Ikr.

Like how they keep bringing up the amount of charms needed :P


Tom Grey said:
Since we were promised that skills would not go to 120, there was no point in doing so after 99. So you can't say that people at 120 slayer should have enough charms for 120 summoning.


Literally the very next sentence explains why you are wrong. Tells me you are not reading other people's opinions, so your's should not be taken into account either.

25-May-2018 14:56:56 - Last edited on 25-May-2018 14:59:11 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Kawaii Ahri said:
^ This. I think new summoning creatures would be super useful for skills.


Exactly.

Would like to see a higher fishing familiar above granite lobby.

Speaking of which, its sad that the highest lvl wcing familiar is at 33, so its about time they released something better.


Here lies your problem. Its not that summoning has too much content before 99, but its that it is not balanced at all. If you want higher wc pet, I will reject the idea to introduce it past 99 for the same reasons you stated: the highest lv wcing familiar is at 33. What I would support is release of familiars throughout 1-99 which aid in skills more or less equally, getting better as levels progress. If you get a familiar at 33 and next one at 110, there is still a disparity.

25-May-2018 22:17:18

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Marusha said:
Draco Burnz said:
Marusha said:
Support.
I hate any forced level 120 because it keeps me from training the skills that I like.

Why did they not started updating till level 110

That is lesser boring.


How is any 120 skill "forced"?:@

Who says you have to get them to 120?

If its because of comp or w/e, then thats your choice. Not jagex's or anyone elses.

You want to get the cape back thus you choose to get 120 in said skill.


And who do you think you are?

You cannot tell me if or when I feel forced or not.

Mind your own "game" business"

----

Agreed. If my goal is a comp cape, I will do all the requirements necessary. But when jagex starts pushing the goal post unnecessarily, thats when I get an issue.

But thankfully, the backlog is just a collection of the ideas that they have (according to reddit replies anyway). If they don't lie (which I am sceptical already), we should get another poll, which specifically targets 120 summoning as a new idea.

Right now, I can see that my thread has mixed reactions and its expected, given the provocative title, and the need of the society to prove everyone wrong. So I am hopeful that when additional information comes out, we get a more representative group of people to vote on the proposal.

And if that is the case and people do want 120 summoning to come, I wouldn't complain. But really and truly, the atmosphere around 120 slayer and invention does not create a good precedent to expect something better from the increased cap on yet another skill.

29-May-2018 04:01:28 - Last edited on 29-May-2018 04:05:37 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
And if that is the case and people do want 120 summoning to come, I wouldn't complain. But really and truly, the atmosphere around 120 slayer and invention does not create a good precedent to expect something better from the increased cap on yet another skill.


I fail to see literally any downsides to 120 skills?

The only reasons ive seen so far in this thread are mostly based around ppl just not wanting to train the skill.

Well newsflash, you dont have to.


Repeating the same point time and time again, doesn't advance your argument. I saw many more ideas, even on this tread as to why people don't want 120 skills. I suggest you read into the posts.

29-May-2018 04:35:45

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Marusha said:
Squib said:
I know someone who said he will quit the game if this comes through and I do see his point, more and more RS seems to be geared in a nonsensical way to service only the smuggest "elite" type players . I played this game for more than 16 years and yet accept i wont have all content played and that is completely fine and even nice that there are more things than i have time to play but when it is just nonsense like this to pacify those "no lifer" small minority players who have seen it all and done it all (and so already have beyond 120 lvl summoning) because they do nothing else than RS, I find it difficult to understand the point of the update and it also starts to push me away from the game since it doesn't seem like the game is made for the ordinary person like me any more.

EDIT: also 1-99 is crappy already so if there is dev time to spend, spend it on that!


Indeed.
I have no time to enjoy the game anymore or doing social things in the game.


This is a really good point. Probably the most important in any new project. Will your customers enjoy the product? If being forced to grind to 120 is what they think everyone enjoys, its not the case.

I too want to enjoy aspects of the game other than training skills to 120. If people want to train skills to 120, let them, its their goals and ambitions. I want to explore bosses, find new moneymakers, socialise in the community, run a clan, etc. My own time is then diverted from those activities to grind out a skill I got 99 in, in 2009 just because a bunch of elitist players who are already 120, or have a goal to get the 120, want additional content.

The skill is unbalanced, thats the problem. Fix the 1-99 familiars first, and let us see. If we want more of what is done, we will all ask for 120. But no need to raise the cap, add 10 new familiars over 5 years and call it a job well done. No good.

29-May-2018 04:43:01

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Marusha said:
Miu said:
I would rather see a new elite skill, perhaps one that produces more powerful pouches for summoning at all levels, like the splicing idea they mentioned in the post.

120 skills of ones that were capped prior at 99 haven't felt good, don't fix the issues with the skill, and reward people that favored some skills over others.


Good point.


That "point" has already been discussed as why it isnt sound.


Well, they don't. If you stop guessing what people think, and just listen to them, you will get further insight. Which is the purpose of this thread. And it worked well so far. I found a ton of ideas why 120 should be implemented and I agree with them. If you think that the other side of the argument is just about the comp cape, you are most definitely wrong my friend.

29-May-2018 04:44:57

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Marusha said:
Miu said:
I would rather see a new elite skill, perhaps one that produces more powerful pouches for summoning at all levels, like the splicing idea they mentioned in the post.

120 skills of ones that were capped prior at 99 haven't felt good, don't fix the issues with the skill, and reward people that favored some skills over others.


Good point.


That "point" has already been discussed as why it isnt sound.


That point is the most sound point. Its about efficient use of Jagex resources. I would rather they utilise it to create a new elite skill, linked to summoning, or just a skill linked to summoning (I don't support 120 in general).

On the same note on utilising resources, there are skills better suited to be raised to 120 than summoning in the first place. These are all combat skills, and they make much more sense. But its much better if Jagex creates enjoyable content with new ideas.

29-May-2018 04:49:41 - Last edited on 29-May-2018 04:58:33 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Well, they don't. If you stop guessing what people think, and just listen to them, you will get further insight. Which is the purpose of this thread. And it worked well so far. I found a ton of ideas why 120 should be implemented and I agree with them. If you think that the other side of the argument is just about the comp cape, you are most definitely wrong my friend.


Then please enlighten me as to what these other reasons are.


As you said to me, "like how you don't read". If you didn't see the ideas in 12 pages, you won't see them in my post.

29-May-2018 04:52:44

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Those who already have 120 summoning, or want to get 120 summoning are irrelevant here to be honest. They are happy to train the boring skill as it is right now. Everyone else needs to be considered. Otherwise this is another update nobody wants to do.

To all who say, then don't do it. Well, menaphos came out, and it was total garbage. So I didn't do it, just like the majority of the runescape players. We got the obelisk to get the comp cape back. Rest of the content is dead. Do you want summoning to be the same?

29-May-2018 15:44:14

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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KitKat3303 said:
Every requirement they raise brings Runescape closer to becoming illegal.


No. The regulator is reactive, and unless we start seeing deaths from playing runescape for too long, this is not gonna affect them.

This also refers to TH and how people consider it gambling. Unless it makes a fuss in the media, nothing is gonna be done about it from the regulator.

30-May-2018 13:07:01

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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f a k e news said:
You don't need to grind summoning. Everyone without 120 summoning will still have benefits from the 100-119 summoning creatures. Why not Have both 120 summoning and A new Elite skill?

What? How can you have benefits from 100-119 summoning without 120 summoning?

Also, its better that Jagex resources (which are extremely scarce) should be put towards a new elite skill, rather than a 2 week development for a half a year grind nobody asked for.

01-Jun-2018 15:28:17

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Invention is an elite skill. Slayer shouldn't have gone to 120, so...


Why not?

Are ppl really against more content?....

Also invention being elite makes 0 difference.

I mean they couldve stopped that at 99 if they wanted to, but didnt.

So if invention doesnt work, i could use dg instead.

Its an elite skill because it requires 3 other skills to be lv 80.
It does make sense to stop it at 99, which it should have been, but the amount of experience till 120 was lowered to 80m anyway.

DG also could have stopped at 99. However, you would be unlocking a boss every floor you complete. Which would result in some content being scrapped.

Summoning is different, because its not balanced, rather than not complete. Add familiars throughout 1-99 to fill those gaps and no need to add anything new. Because when they say they are gonna add "new" familiars, they are just gonna be old ones with +1% increased benefit.

So its not about that people are against content, its that people are against content which we don't want to do, because we have done it already and didn't find fun.

If you read any other posts on this thread, nobody is opposed to new elite skills being introduced. Meaning we don't care that our capes are taken away, but it should be for something new. Making summoning 120 is not new, and will just require those who don't like the skill to train it during bxp and stop at 120. It doesn't benefit the economy, community or the game as a whole.

02-Jun-2018 17:36:42 - Last edited on 02-Jun-2018 17:40:41 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Read what you write then. When you supported both elite skills and 120 summoning, I inferred that you did not oppose new elite skills.

And read post again. I am not saying that they can't. They can make summoning go to 10b xp if they want to. I am saying they shouldn't.

02-Jun-2018 20:34:48

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Konota said:
A full rework would probably be best, but I don't agree with the mass grind. It's summoning that we're talking about. With the current XP rates, it is extremely fast (even with getting charm, which you get from slayer anyway) to get 200m and Lv120.
And with new pouches (which I am certain that will be added), it will only be faster.

Hopefully Jagex will introduce some nice item/gold sinks with this update and for once, do something with skilling and not everything with PvM in mind.


Agreed.

With getting charms summoning exp is not that good. I don't know why people always consider training as just running to the obelisk. There is an aspect of collecting money as well. All of it adds up.

Jagex already introduced an items sink in the form of invention. Now I can't get half the items from ge, because they are extremely low volume. Great to flip but awful to buy.

Hopefully what jagex does is realise that the skill is complete, do some balancing here and there. Release a few familiars between 1-99 and leave it alone. Because if they are gonna pour resources into making 120, we will be missing out on good content.

05-Jun-2018 17:45:09

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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There is an option on the charming imp to consume the charms for two of you completely oblivious on the matter. It takes the charms you receive from the drop and carefully, without too much work destroys it and gives some exp in return. This small gizmo can be set to destroy charms of all varieties. Gold, green, crimson and even blues. So if you can’t understand how people don’t have charms saved up at 120 slayers, maybe it’s time to start thinking?

28-Jun-2018 11:32:57

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Not everyone cares about xp, so if you can't comprehend it, its your problem.

If there was no 120 skills, there would be no point in collecting charms. Which is what was said before. Thus since there is no point in training to 120, then there is no point in collecting resources to do it in the first place. Simple logic.

30-Jun-2018 08:07:13

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
Not everyone cares about xp, so if you can't comprehend it, its your problem.

If there was no 120 skills, there would be no point in collecting charms. Which is what was said before. Thus since there is no point in training to 120, then there is no point in collecting resources to do it in the first place. Simple logic.

Doesn't matter, its you're own fault for setting to destroy. We already have 3 skills that go to 120 now, and it seems like this is the direction Jagex wants to take. Maybe you should stop setting it to destroy.

If you don't care about xp, then why would 120 summoning even bother you anyways? You're not going to lose your 99 or max cape if 120 summoning was introduced. Unless you're telling me you're comped, which would be so silly of you to complain now because once you signed up to comp cape, you were already knew you could lose your cape with every Monday update.


So you are telling me just because I have a comp cape, I should have no say in whether I want more 120s or not? If tomorrow jagex wants to introduce XP tax and membership prices for all those who are over 1b xp are doubled, would you be concerned?

30-Jun-2018 21:31:21

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
If tomorrow jagex wants to introduce XP tax and membership prices for all those who are over 1b xp are doubled, would you be concerned?

Where are you even getting this idea from? That is so completely unrelated and different from 120 summoning, how can you even compare those two?

Unlike your idea, changing a skill from 99 to 120 has already been done, twice.


The fact that it was done twice and done so horribly is why we don't want 120 summoning to come. Read the thread.

Also, the point I made is not unrelated. Because I have bias against 120 summoning, which is what I am being told on this thread. But everyone has a bias against membership prices. So when it starts to affect you personally, you don't want it, but if it doesn't you don't want to listen to others' opinions.

If you didn't understand, we were arguing against your argument that everyone has charms for 120 summoning at 120 slayer. I think your assumption is faulty and was able to highlight it to you. So find another argument why 120 summoning should come.

01-Jul-2018 18:01:39 - Last edited on 01-Jul-2018 18:02:21 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Doesn't seem like you are trying hard to be honest.


The same could be said to you.


UrekMazino said:
I didn't come here wishing that 120 summoning will be implemented in near future. I'm just trying to understand why people are so against 120 summoning.


Same here.


I’m not here to understand why people want 120 summoning. I’m here to show why 120 is not the update we need right now.

02-Jul-2018 22:40:47

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Plus, you don't lose max cape if it gets made into a 120 skill.
Plus, what's 90m summoning xp anyways? You can get that in a dxp weekend, in 9 hours.


Comp cape exists. That’s one. If you can get 120 summoning so quick props to you. But I think you are lying. That’s two. 120 cosmetic cape already exists for those that want to waste their time with 120 skills so we don’t need to raise the hard cap. That’s three.

02-Jul-2018 22:44:16

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Comp cape exists. That’s one. If you can get 120 summoning so quick props to you. But I think you are lying. That’s two. 120 cosmetic cape already exists for those that want to waste their time with 120 skills so we don’t need to raise the hard cap. That’s three.


Just saying but thats already been disproven, because you chose to get comp knowing full well that its not a "forever" cape.


That’s not disproving it but just stupid. Because if you read the thread you would know I’m not opposed to new skills which would also lock the comp.

03-Jul-2018 11:52:15 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2018 11:53:20 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Cute Brat said:
No more 120s
Agreed. I’d rather they work on new and interesting skills then beat a dead horse by increasing a cap to 120 with no content. Dungeonearing and invention was a step in the right direction. More of that kind of content and less of dumb m&s reworks or 120 skills.

02-Feb-2019 22:28:50

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
Cute Brat said:
No more 120s
Agreed. I’d rather they work on new and interesting skills then beat a dead horse by increasing a cap to 120 with no content. Dungeonearing and invention was a step in the right direction. More of that kind of content and less of dumb m&s reworks or 120 skills.

>No content
Omegalul, got over a hundred ideas for familiar here. Please do tell me how there'll be a lack of content.
Having ideas is not the same as actually doing content for the game. There were thousands of ideas for 120 slayer and invention, where are they now? 120 slayer introduced faster xp slayer creatures and arbitrary slayer requirement boss. It’s literally the same skill as it was 1-99 as it is 99-120.

Same will be with summoning. 99-120 is likely going to be 1-5 million xp per hour on dxp, introduce 20 new familiars (likely just different coloured reskins of old models) from which only 5 will be useful but make steel Titan, yak, nihils, and other skilling summons useless. If they want to balance the skill out, introduce new familiars for skilling and combat for 1-99 first. Then if people are still craving for more, go ask if we want 120.

03-Feb-2019 14:44:34

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Cute Brat said:
No more 120s
Agreed. I’d rather they work on new and interesting skills then beat a dead horse by increasing a cap to 120 with no content. Dungeonearing and invention was a step in the right direction. More of that kind of content and less of dumb m&s reworks or 120 skills.


so dungeoneering a 120 skill invention a 120 skill were steps into right direction. but other skills to 120 isnt a step in right direction?

there are 24 skills that arent 99 if we increase to 120. thats 24*21 thats 504 more levels for
more content
you know the same direction invention and dungeoneering have gone

yet reworking a skill so it makes more sense with rest of rs. creating more intersting way of creating armour. that is more content. (thats limited at 99) is not a step in right direction? how does this make sense?

you seem to be unsure on what you want. are you wanting content or not?
Yet you don’t read then. Increasing the skill level to 120 is not content. It’s forcing to do the same thing you have already done to 99 and stopped for a good reason, because it’s boring or costs too much money, or whatever other reason.

120 dg and invention might as well have been 99 anyway. 120 dg is that way because of how the floor are unlocked. If they get unlocked every level, we only need less than 99. Same with invention. If the skill gave 100k Xp an hour, we wouldn’t need 80m to 120 and could go with 99, and all unlocks would fit.

120 slayer makes less sense, considering that all that has changed is xp gain an hour from essentially a skill to kill mobs and get loot. No “new” content per se, because you just kill a monster, but this time to 100m xp. Same will be with summoning. Same skill we don’t want to train past 99, but with unlocks that require us to do it. Instead of rebalancing 1-99.

05-Feb-2019 23:10:46

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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When I say 120 dg and invention are steps in right direction I mean that the skills are actually fun to train and explore. Rather than summoning, where all you do it collect charms, buy summoning materials and pouches and run to obelisk to train. I still don’t understand how to this day “using” familiars is no exp almost, compared to running and destroying secondaries and gp.

05-Feb-2019 23:15:10

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Increasing the skill level to 120 is not content. It’s forcing to do the same thing you have already done to 99 and stopped for a good reason, because it’s boring or costs too much money, or whatever other reason.


Of course just raising the lvl cap isnt content, thats why theres threads with ideas for content to fill those lvl gaps.


Room for new good content :D
Thats like saying, lets spend 1 year creating new land on runescape map. In 5 years we will add some content to it, MAYBE.

07-Feb-2019 22:16:30

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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New slayer mobs with different drops are not content. Lack of ideas at Jagex for 120 gap also does not justify the minuscule amount of work they did to take a bunch of existing monsters and recolour them green and black.

If you think 504 levels is content, then go for virtual cape. No one is forcing you not to.

And unless you have been living under a rock urek, 120 skills are required for comp cape. So don’t bs us with that, oh you don’t have to do it.

09-Feb-2019 17:06:37

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Deltaslug said:
What they did with slayer was so that they could add more mobs with more mechanics, even though the new slayer mobs slowly reach the same difficulty level as like the lower tier in game bosses and even GWD1 bosses.
Afterall, your T85+ Slayer creatures before the update included Dark Beasts, Abyssal Demons, and Airut. The T95 "elite mobs" from Runelabs weren't quite what players were expecting.

I'm for rebalancing the existing Summoning content somehow rather than just upping it to 120.
Plus raising Summoning has a similar argument to raising 120 combat: we don't have much in game right now that warrants the raise.

Yes, we've steadily seen stronger combat mobs and bosses added into the game.
But players who have "mastered" some of the higher end bosses are having an easier and easier time with Telos, Arraxi, Vorago, etc ... even virtually soloing some of the "group bosses" ... and that is with T90-92 gear.
You can imagine how much easier it would be for them with T99 or higher.

Adding in higher tier summoning familiars would have a similar issue.
More DPS or more storage for food for bosses.
Higher efficiency rate for gathering skills when we've had so much added in that between Invention, Outfits, potions, and auras, you're already at a decent rate.

Yet at the same time, how many variants of familiars are completely ignored?
How many familiars have redundant or useless abilities?
We have gaps for skilling familiars (ie: several mining and fishing, but only 1 for woodcutting).

We need to have the existing familiars rebalanced, and even a few be considered for removal (or at least useless effects removed).
Or having something done to make it so players aren't using just the same 5-6 familairs.
Well said.

10-Feb-2019 12:02:17

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:

Oh wow, its almost like I, and many others, have brought up ideas to fill up the gaps for the new levels so that we won't run into this problem.

You're not forced for maintain the cape. Don't wear it if you don't want to keep up with the reqs. Don't bs us with all that, oh you're forced to.


Your ideas for 120 summoning are nothing new. There will be no difference between raising a skill cap to 120 with a promise of new content in 5 years and raising the cap with your ideas implemented. So best to choose neither.

Genius, explain to me how would I be able to wear my comp cape if I don’t have 120 summoning? There is a req for summoning already, it’s level 99. So stop using this argument already, because it’s false. Come to think of it, all you say is that we are not forced to maintain the cape and that we are already expected to have 120 summoning either banked or in xp. Newsflash. 120 summoning is not a requirement for anything so there is no point is wasting time or money on it. Neither should there be.

12-Feb-2019 17:44:27 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2019 17:45:23 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
Your ideas for 120 summoning are nothing new.

UrekMazino said:

Oh wow, its almost like I,
and many others
, have brought up ideas to fill up the gaps for the new levels so that we won't run into this problem.


Tom Grey said:
Genius, explain to me how would I be able to wear my comp cape if I don’t have 120 summoning?

Last I checked, you can still log in to the game while not being able to wear comp, so you're not forced to maintain it. Don't you dare think you deserve to wear a "completionist" cape if you don't have the mentality and determination of a completionist.
Last time I checked you were telling me to read. Guess who could use that advise now.

13-Feb-2019 10:25:31

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14-Feb-2019 10:02:37

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
He is showing you that if you were not 120 summoning, you are less likely to support it. I’m not surprised you don’t see it.

You could reset my xp to 0 and I'd still support it. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy/double standard. I'm not surprised you don't see it.
Again you showing bias. I am not a fan of training summoning and only got it to 99 in the first place to use yak, steel Titan and for comp cape. If neither of those existed, I wouldn’t be 99. Saying that if you reset yourself to 0 cap and still support it doesn’t work if you enjoy the skill. Me like many others don’t feel the necessity to train something past 99 that is esssentially a bank sink.

15-Feb-2019 00:23:32

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
According to this thread specifically & suggestion thread about new content, there aren't much non supporters, apart from you and.. few legit people and alts....

You said that you wound't be 99 if Steel Titan and Pack yacks existed, well guess what. What do you think 120 will bring us? More familiars, more reasons to get! :D (AKA MORE CONTENT) YAY.


Well if you do not enjoy training summoning, that's on you. Because you don't like it, doesn't mean it should not be released. Luckily this game isn't about you. It's about the majority. And see my first sentence "According to this thread specifically, there aren't much non supporters".

Besides, the EXP rates (even if you still have to gather charms & WITHOUT DBXP), it is extremely fast to train. It is faster to get 99-120 than from 1-99 in a skill like divination, runecraft or mining. Imagine if you actually planned on gathering charms before DBXPW and materials... 1 day 120? Yep it is possible. Heck even 200m from level 99.
Second person supporting with 200m exp. Guess what 120 will bring us really, steel tittan that is 10% stronger. This does not justify me or anyone else spending 500-1000 million on a skill we already maxed out.

Doesn’t matter how fast the skill is if it is pointless after a certain point. I can get 120 prayer in less than a week, doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea for me to do so. Summoning doesn’t need expansion, but rather a rabalance. It’s already a complete skill. Would rather Jagex works on actual new content.

And if you don’t want to hold a discussion, but just troll around this is not a thread for you.

15-Feb-2019 10:16:40

Tom Grey

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Cute Brat said:
100% support no 120 summon, its not worth it for the small benefit we would get from a few extra summon familiars if we ever even used them.
Yes. But it’s not even just a small benefit.

Currently you get a boost to your dps if you use combat familiars, convenience improvement when you use convenience familiars and skilling boost if you use skilling familiars. The benefits are not balanced across all activities though. Increasing the level gap and filling it with stronger versions of those types of familiars does not improve the skill in any way.

It just decreases 99 to around lv 70 unlocks and makes 120 essentially the new 99. This impacts not only a sense of achievement,with constantly moving targets but also has a detrimental impact on the economy.

16-Feb-2019 22:20:34

Tom Grey

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Never RIP said:
I want a rework and 120 sum..

Rune titan and rune minotaur @ 50 sum..
Loads better stuff..

Elder rune titan and elder rune minotaur @ 90 sum..

Even better stuff at 120.

Maybe metal dragon spirits between 90 and 120...

Nature, cosmic, chaos, death, blood titans...


There is loads to add to summoning.

Necromancy... 10 different undead types each type with a combat ability bonus... Turn regular minotaurs and titans into undead versions with a combat bonus.

Pets fighting should be a thing.


Agree on moving certain familiars down a tier and make the skill more balanced. As for 120, we don't need stronger versions of already available summons. All you will do is just make 120 a new 99, whereas you should already have access to everything at 99 in the first place.

17-Feb-2019 17:04:45

Tom Grey

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ChicNbiskits said:
Draco Burnz said:
Never RIP said:
-


Or they could do both.

When/if they do 120, they could also rework the previous lvls.
- Exactly.
That's why I believe that M&S rework was half-baked.
M&S was half baked because all they needed to do it to move rune to t50 and create add-ons to existing t60-t90 armour that is made with smithing, such as thorns.

But to be honest, the update was not all that bad, even if it did reduce PVM drops a little. As it stands right now, M&S doesn't need to be increased to 120, because its more or less balanced. I expect the same to happen to summoning, and no increase of cap to 120 either.

17-Feb-2019 21:54:46

Tom Grey

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You can beg all you want, wouldn’t be a first. But just because a skill is fast to train doesn’t mean everyone who is training it is going for 120. We had so many dxp weekends. By your twisted logic I would expect 500k players to have 120 sum already.

18-Feb-2019 10:53:39

Tom Grey

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Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Considering the speed of summoning barely 20k players have over 20m summoning xp. Only a fraction of rs player base is going for 120, definitely not most.


when comp trim cape was released only one person had the reqs for it. the amount of people having it on release means nothing to if it should happen or not.
The response was related to him saying that majority are going for 120 which is untrue. And to majority are maxed which is also untrue. Even if we take a simple majority of 50.01% it’s not even close.

Also when comp came out there was barely a fraction of a fraction of players who went for trim. It’s trully useless, and why it’s not that popular. Now consider if they put stats on trim, then more players will be willing to go for it, even though there is no extra content for them to play. Kinda reminds me of something......oh yes, 120 skills.

18-Feb-2019 22:57:16

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
The response was related to him saying that majority are going for 120 which is untrue. And to majority are maxed which is also untrue. Even if we take a simple majority of 50.01% it’s not even close.


Are you sure you arent mistaken by ppls alts or w/e?

I mean im looking at high scores right now and it seems that more than 76k acc are indeed maxed atm.

So how you think thats not nearly everyone is weird.

Last i heard theres only like what, 50-60k or so ppl playing rs3 atm.
Playing at one time. Also same question to you, how many of the maxed accounts are alts.

19-Feb-2019 00:03:00

Tom Grey

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Draco Burnz said:
Tom Grey said:
Why? What would they do that you can’t get from current familiars, or that it can’t be added to 1-99?


Uhh, besides probably being an upgraded steel titan.
Which makes even less sense? How about we release corrupted oak logs at 110 woodcutting and call it content.

19-Feb-2019 00:43:18

Tom Grey

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Tenebri, you are plain out wrong. Maybe you misread their messages when they said they are going for comp. you are lying through your teeth with confirmation bias used as evidence. I suggest you go out of your circle and talk to random players in runescape. Even now, not many comped players are going for trim.

and did you stop and think that requirements that are only on trim would attract those players who go for that cape? So if you were spending half your life at chompies and castle wars you’d most likely see someone going for trim, because nobody else would go to those places.

I was in 6 skilling/pvm/pvp themed clans with 100+ members. There was 1 guy going for trim.

19-Feb-2019 11:03:28 - Last edited on 19-Feb-2019 11:07:35 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Tenebri, you are plain out wrong. Maybe you misread their messages when they said they are going for comp. you are lying through your teeth with confirmation bias used as evidence


no not at all considering i was one of these people going for comp and for trim. we were discussing it at the time on how to do things correctly.

so dont make assumptions on what you dont know. it wasnt a case i asked they said "im going for comp" then left there. it was hours of discussion


Tom Grey said:
suggest you go out of your circle and talk to random players in runescape. Even now, not many comped players are going for trim.


and what does going for trim have to do with summoning becoming 120?
are you trolling right now. This is the question I should be asking you. Why did you bring it up in the first place? My discussion was about whether majority are going for 120 until you barged in.

19-Feb-2019 23:43:23

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
I was in 6 skilling/pvm/pvp themed clans with 100+ members. There was 1 guy going for trim.

In my clan with 160 members (like 1/4 are alts), we have 3 trimmed, 1 actively going for trim, and 1 more who will start actively work on trim in the near future.

So what am I trying to say? I say we cut out the useless anecdotal evidences.

And no, I'm not only targeting you, I'm not that petty, I'm talking to Tenebri as well.
5/160. You prove my point, thank you.

19-Feb-2019 23:44:11

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
I was in 6 skilling/pvm/pvp themed clans with 100+ members. There was 1 guy going for trim.

In my clan with 160 members (
like 1/4 are alts
), we have 3 trimmed, 1 actively going for trim, and 1 more who will start actively work on trim in the near future.

So what am I trying to say? I say we cut out the useless anecdotal evidences.

And no, I'm not only targeting you, I'm not that petty, I'm talking to Tenebri as well.
5/160. You prove my point, thank you.

5/120 >> 1/600+

If there's anything I proved, its that these anecdotal evidences don't prove anything and that your figures only reflect your own social circle similar to Tenebri.

But hey, I guess understanding stats and proofs is difficult, right? Can't blame you for not getting my point immediately.
read his comment again. Anyone he knew or bumped into that was maxed went for trim comp. 1/600 or 5/120 prove that he is wrong because even now not that many players go for useless achievements like trim or 120 skills. You got your own thread, go troll there if you don’t read what others are saying.

20-Feb-2019 10:48:24

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
read his comment again. Anyone he knew or bumped into that was maxed went for trim comp. 1/600 or 5/120 prove that he is wrong because even now not that many players go for useless achievements like trim or 120 skills. You got your own thread, go troll there if you don’t read what others are saying.

Oh wow, is it too crazy to think that maybe my social circle is not oriented towards completionist mind set? Most of my clan mates are just going for max/max xp, its almost like its a skilling clan, yet there are some skillers who still wants to go for trim.

You were the one trolling on my thread, my thread is just for pooling of familiar ideas, not to debate whether 120 summoning is a good idea. Whereas the basis of your thread is to debate on the idea of raising the skill cap, which is exactly what we're doing. If you so truly believe I'm trolling, then why haven't you reported to FH yet?
maybe because trolling is not an offense on forums? Read the rules please.

You are also proving my point even more. You are so caught up in your small little circles with people who go for trim or 120 that you think nobody has a different view or deserves a voice. If you are already 120 summoning you are predisposed to have a bias on 120 skills agenda.

And your thread of “ideas” doesn’t understand the definition of new content. New mechanics, methods, areas, etc is new content. Expansions to 120 skills as was done with slayer is not new content. We are not better or worse off by having 120 slayer, which makes it unnecessary. Same with summoning. If you want support for 120 sum create a thread to gather support. This thread is about not increasing the cap for summoning and by extension, other skills.

20-Feb-2019 17:13:12

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
Summoning offers nothing more than longer gameplay for the ones that seek for it.
Don't like summoning past 99? Don't do it. That simple :)


If you like summoning past 99 nobody is stopping you from doing it. However if you put 120 req on comp, players will be forced to do it. I don’t think you will see the difference, but that’s ok.

Also, here is a list of familiars that are not used on a regular basis (by your definition “a few”):
Spirit Woolf
Dreadfoul
Thorny snail
Spirit pack pig
Spirit prayer pig
Spirit war pig
Spirit mosquito
Desert wyrm
Spirit scorpion
Spirit tz-kih
Albino rat
Spirit kalphite
Compost mound
Giant chinchompa
Vampire bat
Honey badger
Void ravager
Void spinner
Void shifter
Void torcher
Bronze Minotaur
Bull ant
Evil turnip
Spirit cockatrice
Spirit guthatrice
Spirit saratrice
Spirit zamatrice
Spirit pengatrice
Spirit coraxatrice
Spirit vulatrice
Spirit pack pig 2
Spirit prayer pig 2
Spirit war pig 2
Iron Minotaur
Bloated leech
Spirit jelly
Steel Minotaur
Karamthulthu overlord
Smoke devil
Spirit cobra
Mithras Minotaur
Barker toad
Ravenous locust
Phoenix
Praying mantis
Adamant Minotaur
Forge regent
Talon beast
Giant ent
Demon brawler
Demon deacon
Demon executioner
Spirit dagannoth
Spirit pack pig 3
Spirit prayer pig 3
Spirit war pig 3
Swamp Titan
Ghast familiar
Wolpertinger

Or about 60%

At 99 there is no point in using the following too:
Iron Titan
Geyser Titan
Smoke nihil
Tune Minotaur
Moss Titan
Ice Titan
Fire Titan
Obsidian golem
Bunyip
War tortoise
Abyssal lurker
Spirit graahk
Spirit kyatt
Spirit lapuria
Ibis
Abyssal parasite
Spirit terrorbird
Pure lord
Granite crab

So additional 20%.

So overall we use about 1/5 of all familiars. With 120 that ratio won’t change knowing Jagex, and may likely get lower by making pack yak, steel Titan, nihils or skill boosting familiars obsolete.

23-Feb-2019 15:14:43 - Last edited on 23-Feb-2019 15:15:48 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Shows that you don’t read posts considering I didn’t mention spirit spiders or fruit bat. Essentially you then concede that majority of familiars are not used and there is no point in releasing more until you fix the current state of summoning.

Also comp is a more valid argument than “the skill is easy to train”, “you should have 120 by now”, “if you don’t like it don’t do it”, “120 skills give the possiblility to release new content in the future”. If I forgot any of your other failed argument, let me know.

23-Feb-2019 20:30:29

Tom Grey

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Everything you said is just plain wrong. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Naming 7 more familiars which are extremely niche, and are not really used still shows that you don't read the entire post, and still shows that barely a quarter of released familiars are useful.

24-Feb-2019 04:11:15

Tom Grey

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scousy said:
Cute Brat said:
No more 120s, at the very least poll if we want it or not. Rather see something new and no 120 summ.



120 summoning already got polled and had one of the highest percent of ppl wanting it. Was at like 13% and other things were 10% or under.
This is the point of the original post though. 13% is not high at all too, and I see from this thread that about 10% of people want 120s and the rest don’t.

Trouble with the poll is that there were no good updates polled in the first place. Plus, it was surprising that they would come out saying no more 120s and that slayer was rushed, then soon after, “but do you want 120 summoning”. Completely out of touch with reality.

24-Feb-2019 14:14:14

Tom Grey

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The familiars I listed on page 53 are not useful even to low level players. They are just there as a training method to get to the next useful familiar.

Also the fact that you think this should be in suggestions, means you haven’t read the front post or haven’t heard of 120 summoning poll.

24-Feb-2019 19:48:18 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2019 19:48:58 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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My reasoning, so you don’t misconstrue it again is this:

60% of familiars are useless regardless of your summoning level. 80% are useless at lv 99. With 120 bracket I expect 90% to be useless.

It is better to change current familiars to be useful at all levels or least at certain brackets. We don’t need to raise the cap to 120 for that. If you are 120 already you will have access to them regardless, so there is no impact on whether you are 99, 120 or 200m.

24-Feb-2019 21:24:57

Tom Grey

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ChicNbiskits said:
Anima Primus said:
ChicNbiskits said:
Highlights & bullet points I guess..
Wouldn't want you to be Off-Topic.;)


Was I off-topic?

1) Do I have 120 summoning to have a place to ‘discuss content you have done or are eligible for’? I’ve gotten 120 summoning. Check.

2) Did I discuss the topic at hand, ‘Don’t make summoning 120?’ I said summoning is not ready for 120 and hence I agree with op. Check.

3) Have you reported my post above to forum help like the diligent rule abiding player you pretend to be and got an f-mid to remove my ‘off-topic’ post? No? Check.
-
'Tis true text makes a poor conduit for sarcasm/cynicism.. For this I apologize.

I just haven't seen any 'Quality Reasons' to obstruct 120 Summon.

..past simply voting "No." On 120 Summon.
56 pages worth of quality reason. Better start reading.

28-Feb-2019 10:15:47

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
Tom Grey said:
Assume that Jagex will hand over 21 levels with no new content. Which one is more likely.

Hardly to believe -> See other 120's.

ChicNbiskits said:
Tom Grey said:
The familiars I listed on page 53 are not useful even to low level players. They are just there as a training method to get to the next useful familiar.

Also the fact that you think this should be in suggestions, means you haven’t read the front post or haven’t heard of 120 summoning poll.
- Pretentiousness?
-
I remember using quite a lot of those Summons for teles, boosts & extra damage @ those levels, still do on occasion.


Same, I even gave him a few examples.
I think he assumes that everyone is level 99 indeed and that most familiars are not used anymore for high levels. That is true, but you don't see me cut oak logs for either and REE for not having a use (
a
ny
mo
re
).
120 slayer, great example of what we DONT want and why we don’t trust Jagex to do a good job on a new 120 skill.

Also your “examples” are nothing short of using familiars in niche spots that didn’t even contradict my point. Just turned 20% into 25%. I was even very conservative with my list. Because really and trully at 99 summoning there are only 6 familiars worth using regularly.

28-Feb-2019 10:19:38

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
ChicNbiskits said:
Tom~
"..Because really and trully at 99 summoning there are only 6 familiars worth using regularly."
-
Which ones?
You can look them up yourself.

Nihil (all 4 of them)
Steel titan
Pack yak
Pack mammoth
Unicorn stallion/bunyip (albeit more niche)
Lava titan
Giant ent
Granite lobster
Arctic bear
Abyssal titan
Beaver
Meerkats

Strange, I count 14 (16 with unicorn and bunyip).
1 for accuracy, 1 for damage, 1 for extra storage, 1 for skilling boost, 1 for clues, and 1 for healing. Technically you would be correct, but unless you are training multiple skills at the same time, you would use roughly 6 familiars.

02-Mar-2019 04:10:15

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
"1 for accuracy, 1 for damage, 1 for extra storage, 1 for skilling boost, 1 for clues, and 1 for healing."

Ok, let me just use my blood nihil while maging.
Let me just use a giant ent while training mining.
Let me just use a granite lobster to carry my pure ess.

Saying "6 types of familiars" is very different from "6 familiars".
Thought you said that our arguments are running in circles, so why are you still replying and trying to paint yourself as this noble soul, educating us savages?

But I’m not surprised, since every point that I made, you have managed to paraphrase into how I didn’t mean it in the first place. But that is fine, you are entitled to your opinion which I do not support.

02-Mar-2019 14:30:14

Tom Grey

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I do correct you and your ideas. Calling someone a troll is not a matter of different opinion for me, but it is about stating the fact. I feel sorry for you if you think out dialogues are all about you calling me out on my lies. I have already stated that you have only two arguments and I don’t agree with either of them. If you have anything else to add, feel free, otherwise there is a 120 familiar ideas thread to troll around in.

02-Mar-2019 23:59:30 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2019 00:00:03 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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As I said before, if you are not going to read what I write correctly, it’s best not to reply. There are 56 pages worth of material if you are still not satisfied that 120 summoning should not happen. I already stated your hypocrisy on your thread, I never said I am a noble soul. 120 summoning familiars idea you have is not new content because we get 5% boost on the currently available types of summons without adding anything new.

New content for summoning would equate to new method of training, new unseen rewards, new ways of utilising the skill to your advantage other than summons. This has been mentioned on your thread and on this thread countless times, problem is that one needs to actually read what others say.

03-Mar-2019 12:25:50

Tom Grey

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Nibbles Z said:
I also don't see the point in 120 Summoning at this point. 120 Slayer did nothing but make the skill have some really annoying mobs and very few additions that I found fun so it lessened my desire to see more expansions come into the game.

My main gripe is that Summoning is a skill only really trained on BXPW's, events and other methods to avoid actually training summoning, that is to say, it's clearly not a skill many consider fun either.
At least half of the familiars are worthless to all levels, again at least half if not more aren't worth the costs, and recently with the Mining and Smithing rework, some of them aren't representative of the correct levels they represent.

So all in all, I'd rather see a full rework on the skill, make it more fun and engaging, allow it to be trained in combat as well as creation and then maybe if that rework decides it's warranted; go for 120 sure. But in it's current state, please no.
Agreed.

03-Mar-2019 18:45:49

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Nibbles Z said:
I also don't see the point in 120 Summoning at this point. 120 Slayer did nothing but make the skill have some really annoying mobs and very few additions that I found fun so it lessened my desire to see more expansions come into the game.

My main gripe is that Summoning is a skill only really trained on BXPW's, events and other methods to avoid actually training summoning, that is to say, it's clearly not a skill many consider fun either.
At least half of the familiars are worthless to all levels, again at least half if not more aren't worth the costs, and recently with the Mining and Smithing rework, some of them aren't representative of the correct levels they represent.

So all in all, I'd rather see a full rework on the skill, make it more fun and engaging, allow it to be trained in combat as well as creation and then maybe if that rework decides it's warranted; go for 120 sure. But in it's current state, please no.
Agreed.


going by what another skill has done is a bit silly imo. they are separate on what can be achieved
Using a precedent is silly? Slayer is one of the most beloved skills in rs. If they can’t get it right, it is reasonable to doubt that they won’t get summoning right as well.

03-Mar-2019 20:19:59

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Tenebri said:
Tom Grey said:
Nibbles Z said:
I also don't see the point in 120 Summoning at this point. 120 Slayer did nothing but make the skill have some really annoying mobs and very few additions that I found fun so it lessened my desire to see more expansions come into the game.

My main gripe is that Summoning is a skill only really trained on BXPW's, events and other methods to avoid actually training summoning, that is to say, it's clearly not a skill many consider fun either.
At least half of the familiars are worthless to all levels, again at least half if not more aren't worth the costs, and recently with the Mining and Smithing rework, some of them aren't representative of the correct levels they represent.

So all in all, I'd rather see a full rework on the skill, make it more fun and engaging, allow it to be trained in combat as well as creation and then maybe if that rework decides it's warranted; go for 120 sure. But in it's current state, please no.
Agreed.


going by what another skill has done is a bit silly imo. they are separate on what can be achieved
Using a precedent is silly? Slayer is one of the most beloved skills in rs. If they can’t get it right, it is reasonable to doubt that they won’t get summoning right as well.


not at all. you are going by one persons opinion on the update. let me guess you dislike it too?
Slayer is my highest skill overall, so no I don’t dislike it. What I dislike is that instead of making 120 slayer great, we got recoloured monsters. Literally nothing else changed. I don’t want summoning to be increased to 120 just because. So I want to see them balance 1-99 first, and then convince players that going for 120 is not just another cash sink and time waste.

05-Mar-2019 01:07:55

Tom Grey

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Darkmaster_b said:
Tom Grey said:
Page 53 post 1 for what is unbalanced.


I read it and I don't really think it makes the point you think it does.

Tiered progression by its very design makes lower tiered things obsolete upon reaching the next tier.

Skills that level are tiered in their progression. There is no going around this. Without fundamentally changing the entire design of the Runescape skill system there is no way to make a level 40 summoning familiar useful compared to its level 99 replacement in a way that doesn't shatter the foundation skills are built upon.

Forcing an equal usefulness throughout all tiers of the skill is the exact opposite of balance. It sucks away the value of higher level content to spread it around into the lower stuff. The sub 99 familiars are very useful to those with levels that are appropriate for their use. I don't really understand how you couldn't get that.

I'm smithing 99+, does that mean bronze equipment should be balanced to still be useful to me? That is the logic behind the lists you presented. We're not talking about raw materials with gathering skills here either. They do not apply in this particular scenario.
The problem, which was discussed on page 53 is that at any level, 1 or 99, there are 60% of familiars that are obsolete. At the same time there are familiars for skilling that just don’t give similar skilling boosts across the board. So someone with 99 summoning will be better at mining than someone with lv 1 but at the same time will not be better than someone in smithing, invention, fletching, etc. this is why it’s unbalanced.

Same thing for combat. Until a certain summoning level your combat familiars are just a waste to use. But as soon as you reach 99 there is no point in using even those that were useful before, due to nihils, steel titan, etc.

07-Mar-2019 21:31:30

Tom Grey

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120 will just make the matters worse. Players with 120 will be the same as players with 99 right now. Familiars that we currently use will be obsolete. And we will get to the point where players would ask themselves, was 120 even worth it with no actual benefit?

07-Mar-2019 21:44:58

Tom Grey

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You don’t understand that using one familiar to create another still makes the first one obsolete, because it’s not used. So we will have the same problem. Also, for 120 summoning I expect familiars to be 10x more powerful than we have right now, because of the amount of exp required, which would be horrible.

Having inefficient ways to train also creates more problems than it solves. The only way you can make familiars to be good money per hour is to cap their price to high alch value, which boosts inflation.

I also don’t want 100+ to be about familiars. Any summoning expansion which features new summons I will be against, because of the problems I stated before. The only version of 120 I would support is by having a completely different way to train and completely different benefits. 99-120 should feel like a completely different skill, but with some thematic similarity to the original skill. However, at the same time, it would be more reasonable to create a new skill in its entirety and balance summoning 1-99 instead. Which will be beneficial to all, because 1 new content and 2 we don’t upgrade boring skills to 120 just because.

07-Mar-2019 23:43:11 - Last edited on 07-Mar-2019 23:44:26 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Then you have a different definition of obsolete. Because familiars primary use is to be summoned before all else. If familiars are not summoned, they are obsolete.

Making familiars 10-20% or 1000% stronger is all the same. It’s familiars that make others obsolete. Which is unnecessary, considering familiars right now already provide boosts, and all increased cap will do is make 120 a new 99, amid requiring 10x time and money to get.

08-Mar-2019 10:54:29

Tom Grey

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Cute Brat said:
Its not only low level things that arent being used I personally havent used anything besides a pack yak in years. 120 will probably add at max 5 or 6 new things its not worth the price or the time it takes to collect charms for a few more familiars.
Yup, not worth it.

09-Mar-2019 17:52:25

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
Cute Brat said:
probably

Well, luckily there's a thread with some awesome ideas for more than 5 or 6 new 'things' and from my understanding, most people seem to think like that. The more the better. But ofcourse, some balancing needs to be made and discussed. Hence the thread is up.

But we do not need posts like yours (or alts, to seem there's more support).
We need facts, good arguments and not assumptions or sophistry. It's weird that someone agreed with you, based on pure sophistry.
Funny, the thread with barely any good ideas supported by alts, is used as an argument. We need posts like his more than ever, so we get actual quality updates where they would be beneficial, instead of 120 skills.

10-Mar-2019 00:08:15 - Last edited on 10-Mar-2019 00:08:39 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:
Funny, the thread with barely any good ideas supported by alts, is used as an argument. We need posts like his more than ever, so we get actual quality updates where they would be beneficial, instead of 120 skills.
Glad to see you can at least see some positive in my thread.

Btw, only 4 out of 17 of my supporters have less than 2.4k total, so I'd appreciate if you stopped your slandering.

Also, I didn't put some of the outspoken people who support raising the skill cap on my list like Tenebri and Konota since they never explicitly say they supported my thread, so fraction of alts could've been way smaller if I wanted it to be.
Posts like Ultimatlick. But I understand the confusion you had with my sentence.

17 supporters. I’m sure that making a skill 120 is a priority for jagex if 17 people want it.

Also if you didn’t understand, the original post accused this thread of having alts. So replying that ideas thread is supported by alts shows the hypocrisy in the way she/he worded it. I don’t care if you thread is supported by alts or actual people, because I myself do not support it. And it all that’s counts to me anyway.

10-Mar-2019 13:52:33

Tom Grey

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Konota said:
Tom Grey said:
Konota said:
Cute Brat said:
probably

Well, luckily there's a thread with some awesome ideas for more than 5 or 6 new 'things' and from my understanding, most people seem to think like that. The more the better. But ofcourse, some balancing needs to be made and discussed. Hence the thread is up.

But we do not need posts like yours (or alts, to seem there's more support).
We need facts, good arguments and not assumptions or sophistry. It's weird that someone agreed with you, based on pure sophistry.
Funny, the thread with barely any good ideas supported by alts, is used as an argument. We need posts like his more than ever, so we get actual quality updates where they would be beneficial, instead of 120 skills.

ok?
Well, luckily there's a thread with some awesome ideas for more than 5 or 6 new 'things' and from my understanding, most people seem to think like that. The more the better. But ofcourse, some balancing needs to be made and discussed. Hence the thread is up.

But we do not need posts like yours (or alts, to seem there's more support).
We need facts, good arguments and not assumptions or sophistry. It's weird that someone agreed with you, based on pure sophistry.
Hello Moto
Still don’t get it......let’s me spell it out. Posts that support your ideas do not constitute facts, good arguments, or objectivity. They are biased beyond recognition. There are 61 pages worth of arguments for and against 120 summoning. Some valid some not so much so. If you want undying support for something a minority will benefit from, this is not the right thread.

10-Mar-2019 13:55:13

Tom Grey

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Actually it’s not better to make good arguments, because you don’t comprehend logic. I don’t need to convince you specifically that summoning 120 is a bad idea, I need to convince everyone else who has not made up their mind. If making you look bad in the process gets the job done, well, you are just helping me in that.

10-Mar-2019 19:05:03

Tom Grey

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Cute Brat said:
UrekMazino said:
Cute Brat said:
quite sure he has more supporters than your new familiar post

The comment you quoted already counters your point. I guess reading is hard huh?


I think my post says it all but yes you're right it is a hard read when the post is bad like new familiar suggestions :P
Made me chuckle, ngl.

16-Mar-2019 14:14:28

Tom Grey

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Their idea of new content is new familiars, which doesn’t justify 120 at all. They even boast about new 120 summoning ideas thread, with a pile of garbage suggestions. I haven’t seen more than 2 people suggest anything outside of new familiars. So I think there is no new content that they can come up with.

And it’s super sad that the history is being rewritten by some posters who say 120 slayer was a success. Slayer has brought us the same exact methods of training post 99 as before. But now instead of requiring 13m xp it went up to 100m+. Then the perk came with 120 cape which is insane not to get, and boss content was locked behind 115 slayer requirement. To this day the only good piece of new content that came out for slayer was the personal slayer dungeon, which was extremely well received. But the requirement is just 99 slayer.

So please, we don’t need new summoning familiars to be a justification of increased level cap because they are not new content.

24-Mar-2019 14:26:16 - Last edited on 24-Mar-2019 14:27:19 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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UrekMazino said:
Tom Grey said:

You can't even point out a single flaw or a single idea that was bad, so I'd appreciate if you stopped the slandering. Also, it is precisely because of the failure of 120 slayer that I created my thread, so that we have plenty of ideas that can be implemented to prevent lack of content for the skill expansion. Not all of us are revisionist, its quite the opposite.

The familiar ideas is just 1 aspect of the skill expansion, there are others that can and should be tackled as well such as training methods. I just didn't include those in my thread because I wanted my thread to be more focused on just 1 aspect, as its more than enough to create discussion.
Read post one for “you can’t even point out a single flaw or a single idea that is bad”. Read the rest of the 63 pages for 100 more. Your familiar idea is horrid. 17 people supporting, don’t make me laugh. You don’t have any new training method ideas, or else they would be suggested. So save yourself some face, and keep posting on your thread.

26-Mar-2019 22:31:33

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Aria Ventus said:
Tough Powers said:
Seems like the no 120 summoning thread has a lot more support than the pro 120 summoning thread.


The difference is however, marginal.
May not sound good when I say this, but 120 suggestion should only be for those not yet 120, because at the end of the day we are the ones that would need to be sold the idea of training the skill 10x more times. Those at 120 already are content with current methods that they chose to force themselves to get that arbitrary requirement. Remove those at 120 and above and the ratio of support changes drastically.

26-Mar-2019 22:35:17

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Rikornak said:
'120 Summoning? Still on the backlog. We'd love for it not to be the pouch-making skill. Maybe 99-120 is trained a different way ('using your familiars for XP seems the most sensible, too bad it isn't like that right now').'

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/b5tslo/tldw_427_big_questions_qa/
Yes I saw that. And again later in the video they talk about 120 virtual cape, saying they don’t want to move the goal post. Did I have a dejavu or something or are they not seeing how two things don’t match? Pretty pathetic. But looking at what they actually said, I don’t think we are getting any good updates any time soon.

28-Mar-2019 09:38:44

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