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Tierscape corrections/rework

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Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Hi. The new smithing gear breaks tiers.

The Orikalkum gear + 3 requires level 60 in the related stat, yet has T63 equipment bonuses.
This makes dragon weapons and obsidian weapons inferior and redundant.

The simple solution is to make this equipment require stats directly relating to its equipment bonuses, for example, making Orikalkum + 3 require level 63 in the relevant stat.
This will fill niches, while maintaining superiority above its previous T60 slot (without competing due to identical stat requirements).

Necronium + 4 requires 70 in the relevant stat, yet has T74 equipment bonuses.
Same deal. Make all of the smithing gear require stats directly related to their bonuses.
T74 is a new niche, it works out perfectly. It's notable that Necronium is unusual to degrade as "non-special" sub T75 gear. Make it so that Necronium doesn't degrade (in-line with other gear of a similar tier).

As there are many tiers that are overloaded with gear, a suggestion was made by Rikornak, that some items should have their tiers and stats altered slightly, to reduce redundancy and to fill niches.

Some examples:
Obsidian gear (throwing rings, staff, mace, maul, shield) increased to T65
God staves to T65
Superior dragon weapons to T73
GWD1 Godswords to T77
Godbows to T77
(more suggestions can be read on page 6)

Allow staves to be fletched out of logs. (Rikornak's idea). This will complete the staff tiering.
For example, you could fletch a "Magic staff" (T50) out of magic logs. This would be F2P.
Also, allow the "shieldbow sight" to be attached, along with a mystic shield, to create the "Magic Shield-Staff (sighted)", which is t55, just like the magic shield-bow (sighted) - my idea.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

27-Jan-2019 09:33:32 - Last edited on 23-Apr-2019 01:36:42 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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< Removed this post to make way for my original post, in case anyone wanted to read it.

"Hello.

Part of the reason why the M&S rework was created was to improve weapon diversity.
In some cases, this is true. In other cases, it has done the opposite.

New weapons and armour can be made with the new bars which have slightly higher tier stats than the requirements to wield them. I'm ok with this. What I'm not ok with is the fact that only the new weapons/armour have this benefit.


Let's take tier 60 to make an example. "Orikalkum +3"

Orikalkum +3 is the new BIS gear for T60, because it has the stats of T63 while only requiring T60 in the attack or defence stat.

This means that the Orikalkum 2h warhammer + 3, Orikalkum warhammer +3, Orikalkum off-hand warhammer +3 and Orikalkum armour set +3 is the best stuff to use for T60.

It outclasses all of the other T60 melee stuff.
Dragon armour.
Dragon weapons.
Tzhaar-ket-om.
ETC.

So why would you use these anymore, since now they're inferior?

We should be able to upgrade all weapons and armour in the same way, so that weapon diversity remains. Each T60 item would take the same amount of Orikalkum bars as the Orikalkum weapons and armour eg - a Tzhaar-ket-om would require 28 Orikalkum bars to become a "Tzhaar-ket-om +3".

I'm not suggesting that they must change in looks as they are upgraded, like the current new weapons/armours do. That'd take too much dev time. I just don't want everything to be outdated due to the M&S update."

In the process of developing a simpler solution, collaborating with other players.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

27-Jan-2019 14:17:15 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2019 01:58:24 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Original message details are unavailable.
Original message details are unavailable.
Part of the reason why the M&S rework was created was to improve weapon diversity.

It actually wasn't, Jmod clarified that in a recent stream iirc.
Must've missed that one. An older M&S rework vid that I watched stated that they were improving it by adding "passive effects" to each weapon type - introduced with the M&S rework, which obviously... didn't happen. Hopefully the idea hasn't been abandoned, just still being refined.

Thanks for the response
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

27-Jan-2019 14:22:21 - Last edited on 27-Jan-2019 14:24:11 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Yeah, I think that PVE gear should be better than smithable gear, unless they are combined, like masterwork. - which is why I suggested that PVE gear could be upgraded using bars.

Sure, combining armours is already a thing - let's continue the trend.

Yeah, it is weird that the new smithable t50-t70 are all superior to PVE drops, yet t80 and t90 are both inferior. Good point. They only got the high tiers correct, but not the lower ones I guess...

Keep it consistent O_o
Perhaps there is a reason, I hope they can confirm why this is the case.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

29-Jan-2019 03:13:54

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Overwhelming responses, so I'll just try to give answers to everything in one go.

True, the new smithable weapons do not have a passive effect. Most other weapons don't either, though. I'd take the necronium 2h+4 with the added +4 tiers of hit chance + damage and full bandos power gear over Dharrok tank gear with less accuracy, less damage but with a passive effect (unless I'm able to safely risk at like >10% lifepoints). Accuracy is a big deal.

The other point is: how many players would realistically have invention by the time they have 60 or 70 attack? (80 smith, craft, div). I'd say that this would be incredibly rare, so I wouldn't even be mentioning invention at this stage.

As mentioned, necronium 2h+4 is near identical to a godsword in terms of damage and accuracy. That's really strong for just a 70 attack requirement. I think that the necronium+4 weapon + power gear would be realistically the best dps at t70.

As for tanking, necronium+4 armour is vastly superior because not only is it t74 armour for level 70 def, but it has a considerable lifepoint bonus too.

Since most smithable weapons are cheap and easy to obtain, they should not be superior to uniquely dropped PVE weapons. Smith gear should be equal at the very most.

Unrelated, but I like the idea of superior t80 barrows, as I'm sure most would. :O
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

30-Jan-2019 14:10:44

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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I personally still doubt that someone with level 70 combat stats would be likely to have invention unlocked. Combat skills are faster to train and generally more fun, more rewarding and more profitable.

You could also just as easily create orikalkum before receiving a t60 drop from PVM.
In fact, I think it'd be easier, especially if you're wanting a full set. Getting a full set of dragon gear from PVM would take a very long while, even for higher levels.

I'd support a "tier rework" to remove the amount of redundancy.

Perhaps the new smithing items could require levels to equip according to their actual stats, for example: Necronium +4 requires 74 attack or defence to wear.

Elder rune may as well go to +6, since there is no current t86. There are t87 and t88.

Godswords can be made t77, like you mentioned. Perhaps some of the t60 gear could be enabled to have the GWD1 hilts attached to them, so dragon weapons/armour and obsidian gear can be upgraded to t77 also.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

31-Jan-2019 05:38:22

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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@ Rikornak, page 2.

I've examined a lot of players with sub 80 combat stats and it's unlikely for them to have unlocked invention by that point, from my experience. I guess it should still be considered anyway.

I'm focusing more on the weapons themselves anyway. They may end up being augmentable in future too.

Gear having stats higher than its requirements are very rare. The M&S update has changed that to: common.

I agree with the tier steps/increments.
Agree with the wilderness hilt allowing dragon weapons to upgrade to T72.
Agree with godbows upgradable to t77.
Agree for obsidian weapons+shield to be made t65 to fill a niche.

I still think that the new weapons need fixing and should require cb stats relative to equipment stats.

Necronium requires level 70 in the relevant stat to equip.
Necronium +1 should require level 71 in the relevant stat to equip.
Necronium +2 should require level 72 in the relevant stat to equip.
Necronium +3 should require level 73 in the relevant stat to equip.
Necronium +4 should require level 74 in the relevant stat to equip.

That's the easy and logic fix in my opinion.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

03-Feb-2019 02:41:48

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Original message details are unavailable.
Dragon weapons have special attacks and obsidian weapons benefit from the Zerker necklace.

T70 has Barrows, which have unique set effects.

T80 has Torva, which is power armour that offers LP bonuses as well as Core Zaros which is non-degradable.

T90 has.... well malev but whatever.

My point being that the smithable armour is hardly as overpowered or universally useful as you think it is.
Dragon weapon special attacks are inferior to abilities, so its not really a benefit over orikalkum. The Berserker necklace buffs damage by 5%, which would probably make in on par with orikalkum+3 in terms of pure damage, but orikalkum would still have the accuracy advantage. Wearing a berserker necklace means that you miss out on damage and healing from a blood necklace, or benefits of another unique necklace. I still believe orikalkum+3 to be best in slot weapons.

Barrows is a better comparison with its set effects.

The t80 and t90 are power gear, so hard to compare those.

I still prefer my fix to make gear require cb stats relative to equipment stats (my previous post).
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

03-Feb-2019 02:53:28

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Original message details are unavailable.
if you actually want to abolish that higher than usual stats principle, you should abolish the lower than usual stats principle in the same breath to be consequent. And that is something that actually manages to lessen diversity, not increasing it.
I understand where you're coming from Rikornak.

Elder rune can require 80 in the relevant stat.
Elder rune +5 can require 85 in the relevant stat.
Necronium can require 70, as usual.
Necronium +4 can require 74 in the relevant stat.

^ making them all even in terms of combat stats relative to equipment stats and then they can be made augmentable. The advantage that "special equipment" can have over smithable equipment can be a "passive/special effect" (only a small buff). Some are already existing and others can be included in future updates.

That keeps everything on a similar playing field, with special weapons having just a slight advantage over smithing equipment, as I think it should.

I'm still very confused about how smithing t70 "+" gear and below have stronger equipment stats than their requirement suggests and yet all of t80-90 are the opposite, being weaker. So confusing.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

07-Feb-2019 06:50:03

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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@ Rikornak:

Of course I agree that being able to augment is an advantage.

I know that many special weapons don't have a special/passive effect, but Jagex was planning on creating them for each individual weapon type. The smithing stuff could be excluded from this to give special weapons a slight edge. This way, smithing equip can still be augmented without devaluing special.

I think Necronium should not degrade. That solves that.

Agree with the rest that you said. Thanks for the post.


@ Tagakhlo:

Weapon speed does not matter. Abilities are all the same speed. Weapon damage calculation is the same for all weapons of the same tier (well, it's meant to be, but this new smithing gear is an exception).

As far as I know, Orikalkum does not degrade either.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

08-Feb-2019 01:53:48

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Oh ok.

I still think that the +4 tiers above said level reqs is significant.
Solution as mentioned, to make the level requirement match the equipment's stats.

The (+) smithing gear will still be used, as it fills a niche. There are no other T63 or T74 items in the game, so at those levels, they will be worthwhile to use (even in replacement of t70 augmentable items). Then they won't break tiers in terms of equipment stats.

Obsidian gear can be made T65 as you mentioned.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

12-Feb-2019 09:00:06

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Solutions:


Make it so that Necronium doesn't degrade (in-line with other gear of a similar tier).

Where there are too many items of the same tier, change the tiers of some of those items slightly to fill niches. (eg obsidian weapons/shield to T65, godswords and godbows to T77), as you mentioned, Rikornak.

Keep the "+" smithing equipment a niche by updating their requirements according to their equipment stats, so that they don't break tiers. Don't create any weapons of the same tiers as smithing "+" equipment that can be augmentable, or they will be made redundant.

What do you think?
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

12-Feb-2019 09:17:55 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2019 09:28:11 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Yes, I meant to include Bane and Elder rune. Bane is fine, as t76-79 is a niche.

Elder rune does conflict with t82 and t85 gear. Those have other effects and can be augmented, so they will remain superior (which is ok with me). If you are bothered by that, elder rune+5 could maybe be made t86, so that it has a benefit over the augmentable t85 gear.

The other t85 gear either costs a lot more, or takes many months to gain eg ports.
So... perhaps it wouldn't even really matter, as smithing items are cheap and can be obtained instantly from the GE and therefore deserve to be slightly inferior.

I don't see a problem with smithing duplicates of one bit of gear instead of upgrading it.
I don't see a problem with creating a "+" smithing item, and realising you no longer have the reqs to wear it. There is a simple solution - sell it to the ge, or gain 1 level in that skill (which takes hardly any time at all). If it's that big of an issue, a confirmation message could be made when upgrading something which (according to your stats) would change said item to "un-equip-able". Eg "Warning, if you upgrade this item, you won't have the requirements to wear it. It will require _ attack to wear when upgraded. Do you wish to continue?"

The thing I don't like is where will the line be drawn? Someday will there be an item that has t99 stats while requiring level 1? (I doubt it, but how crazy will it get?)

Thanks for your opinion but mine is that it's a good idea to stick to equip stats = stat reqs.

Support for the tierscape changes.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

14-Feb-2019 07:46:15

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Thank you Tuffty.

@ Rikornak:

Interesting about the staff being fletched out of logs idea. This would make staves incredibly cheap, maybe too cheap? T50 staff would then be 400GP. I don't know.

You think 25k is expensive for a T50 2h? Rune 2h used to be 38k! lol. It must be a lot cheaper now, I'm not up to date with the new smithing item prices.

Oh alright. Mystic staves can be made T55 and remain P2P.
Magic logs can be used to create the new T50 staff, appropriately named "Magic Staff".
Another idea, the focus sight can be used on staves, to make "Shield-Staves", just like Shield-Bows. T55 Magic Shield-Stave.

On a side note, F2P pking is becoming even less profitable...
I hope Jagex reads my "The New Wild" thread soon. They could make a F2P variant too.

Thanks again for you contribution, Rikornak. I appreciate it. :)
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

04-Mar-2019 08:36:45

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Hey Gwyndolynn. Sorry for my late reply. I've had limited time and was overwhelmed by the amount of threads that I have and responses that I got. lol O_o

We won't know where the new smithing prices will stabilise until M&S rework hype has settled. I'd say that power gear is almost always better. Tank gear is only superior for PVP or for tanking very hard bosses. However... one could argue that the new elite masterwork (power gear) can tank better than tank gear because you can manipulate its effect, in certain situations.

I do agree that T90 could do with more variety. Masterwork weapons, perhaps? It was suggested on another thread to be able to significantly upgrade dragon weapons (using quests or using other items/ smithing upgrades etc. That could be a solution for another T90 weapon set.

Nox scythe does have one edge over T92 Zaros Godsword. +2 attack range. Better AOE.

I think that tiers should progress in power, so noxious weapons/t90 weapons should in general be better than sub T90 gear. The issue is that it's the only option. Variety for T90 is lacking. That's where having upgradable dragon items could help.

Original message details are unavailable.
Perhaps dragon weapons could be upgraded through the smithing skill, using elder rune bars, and other weapons, to create Masterwork weapons, or "Elder dragon" weapons, as mentioned. Eg dragon 1h melee weapon + (any) drygore weapon + _ elder rune bars = Elite masterwork longsword/Elder dragon longsword/Masterwork dragon longsword. Etc.
I did change a few things from these quotesOriginal message details are unavailable.
Dragon longsword + Drygore longsword = Dragongore longsword? Dragonlore longsword?
Visually looks like a combination of the two. Has the same stats as T90, degrades the same, but it has the dragon special attack as a T90. Same goes for all dragon items.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

06-Mar-2019 10:33:23

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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T85 is close to the accuracy of T90. GWD2 T85 weapons do have the same accuracy as T90, but with T80 damage. I think that the T85 weaponry choices are all pretty reasonable.

One possibility is that the Wyvern Cross bow, Camel staff, Ripper Claws, Lava Whip, Stryke-Bow, Staff of Darkness Etc, could be upgraded with an Ancient Warrior Patch, buffing them all to T90 (however, that would make them cheaper and some would even be superior to use, so this needs to be thought through). Some other method could be used to upgrade them, such as using noxious components. Which obviously requires a nox to be disassembled = expensive.

Dharok's set effect should work with abilities. It'd be nice for barrows sets to be upgradable Interesting idea to make a weapon that has this effect with abilities. I like that balanced strike is sort-of like that :D

Yeah, EOC is very punishing in PVP if you're new. Don't know how to fix that.
There are actually a lot of combos to use in PVP. I think the issue is that the strong combos are incredibly easy to do. An example is asphyxiate to wild magic. This is probably the most used combo and it shouldn't be so strong, in my opinion. It's combos like these which outclass less commonly known combos that are harder to do. Because everyone seems to use the easy/hard hitting combos, it gives the illusion that there aren't many KO combos available, but there are. I don't personally have an issue with combat being fast-paced.

The combat triangle does have differences in each corner, but they are very similar, yeah.
I'm personally against using RNG to determine which corner wins. I'd much prefer each style to be more unique and wins be based on strategy and skill, not RNG.

Thanks for your input Gwyndolynn, I'm trying to fix PVP too.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

06-Mar-2019 10:48:23 - Last edited on 07-Mar-2019 08:35:49 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Upgradable gear already exists in-game and I'm sure it can be further utilised to fill more niches. Some tiers have a good variety of weaponry and others do not.

I think that eoc combat is too complicated for some, but not others. Legacy mode is an alright alternative for those who wish to play a simpler mode. I'm happy that Runescape combat is more interactive and requires more skill that it previously did pre-eoc. There are issues with combat, but I've already made threads addressing most of those issues.

I noticed that weapons scale linearly in terms of damage, but exponentially in terms of accuracy. Having weapon accuracy scale linearly would make it so that sub tiers would not suffer as much and that could be the solution to making sub tiers "less" inferior.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

28-Mar-2019 08:43:49

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Kevvr said:
Why cant dragon armor be t60 power armor with t60 armor stats? That would make it special and unique. Something just feels wrong about granite armor having the same bonuses
Power gear is always 5 tiers below its defence equip level requirement in terms of armour rating, so dragon armour has T60 power armour stats. Granite has T55 tank armour stats. Non-upgraded Orikalkum has T60 tank stats. I don't see a problem there.

The problem happens when Orikalkum gets upgraded and starts having superior equipment stats than the required levels to wear them.

I guess you're asking for dragon armour to be made PVP armour. As there is currently no other T60 melee power gear, I think dragon fills a nice niche where it is now. As always, I try to offer a solution of sorts. Allow dragon armour to be made PVP gear by using an armour upgrade kit on it. This could be the barbarian armour patch, the ancient warrior one, or have a minigame reward (such as the fighter torso) able to be combined with dragon armour to upgrade it to PVP gear. PVP gear has the best of both tank and power gear.

Kevvr said:
Also all of these listed reasons are why I was so against the mining and smithing rework. The game isnt supposed to have all this pve gear like barrows dragon and torva just be inferior to smithable stuff.
Also, anyone remember when they promised that all the stuff t60 and higher wasn't going to be tradeable as to not devalue pve drops? Pepperidge farm remembers.
I agree that smithing gear should not devalue PVM drops. Currently, they have made PVE dropped armour power gear, and smithing gear tank gear, which seems fine to me (personally). I didn't know that T60 and up was once planned to become non-tradable. People would then not be able to profit so much from bossing then, so I don't think it should be made that way. I'd accept some gear not being tradable, but not all.

Thanks for your posts
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

12-Apr-2019 04:49:21 - Last edited on 12-Apr-2019 04:57:36 by Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Gud raider chain body is T55 power and dragon plate body is T60 power. This is just like how there is a T55 granite mace and a T60 dragon mace. I don't see a problem here, as they both fill different niches. If dragon had the benefits of both tank and power, some might argue that it's overpowered. There needs to be a good reason to justify the boosting of dragon to PVP gear status - such as the examples I gave earlier.

I didn't know about those initial ideas for tiers of the new smithing gear.

Elder rune +5 is T85 tank, masterwork is T90 power, which does match the usual trend and why they both have the same armour value. Power gear doesn't normally get damage reduction for PVE, that is the benefit of tank gear.

Jagex made the different armour types for versatility. If you buff one type too much, the others will be useless.

Why would anyone use tank gear if power gear had the same armour value and PVE damage reduction, with an additional damage boost? All tank gear would be made redundant.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

13-Apr-2019 13:30:46

Stoic n Vain

Stoic n Vain

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Smithable bane +4 and elder rune +5 weapons may still devalue augmentable equivalents because of how cheap they are to buy and upkeep. If a player doesn't want to augment their weapon, smithable weapons would be the "no-brainer" option.

Also, T90 tank gear (achto) currently takes a really long time to get and a lot of effort. I guess it would still have the passive benefits and augmentability over T90 elder rune +5.

True, power gear is preferred in PVE. The main issue would be PVP I guess. Having T90 tank cost only a few mil would probably upset the PVP community. Also, having elder rune +0 be T85 tank would make superior ports gear redundant. Cheaper to buy and upkeep. Then you'd only lose like 300k in PVP when losing full T85 elder rune tank gear lol. O_o

I see positives with your proposal too. I see where you're coming from. It's difficult to decide what's the best thing to do.
The New Wild (instanced) <---------> Enhancing Combat and PVP <----- UPDATED to include
Removing RNG from PVP

23-Aug-2019 09:33:48

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