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LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Welcome, dear reader. :)

At long last, a completionist cape rework has been announced, with a request for player input. Well, here is mine!

The goal of this thread is to suggest a - hopefully - sensible way of nixing the completionist's cape's (henceforth cc) stats and replacing its best-in-slot status with a different cape. The idea behind the replacement cape would be that it's entirely combat-oriented, and thus would require various combat-related 'ingredients' to obtain.

Apart from making the cc (as good as) cosmetic, its requirements, which are currently a mess, would be reworked from scratch, making sure they are of the appropriate difficulty as well as consistent, in particular for the trimmed version. Finally, this suggestion introduces a new way of showing off achievements beyond even the trimmed cc, displaying exceptional prowess at, for instance, certain bosses or minigames.

Please let me know what you think! (there is a FAQ at the end) Apart from discussing this particular suggestion, this thread (being in FGU) may of course also be used to discuss the update in general. Note that this thread does not discuss of introducing new, playstyle-specific comp cape equivalents (except for combat), e.g. for minigames, achievements/RuneScore, music, etc. but I would very much be a fan of this idea, so feel free to suggest/discuss that too!

If you have the time, please do read all the discussion in this thread, not just the OP, as there's helpful back-and-forth feedback going on, representing several different views. :)

~~~

Written by Lord Lowerniel Vergidiyad Drakan, Regent of the Sanguine Fields, Prince of Blood, Lord of Vampyrium, Monarch of Morytania, Despoiler of Hallowvale, Bane of Icyene, 5 times winner of the Official Sharpest Teeth Award (ę Varrock Tourist Office 5.163, 5.165-7, 5.169) aka Fswe1.

Thanks to Rikornak and Big Storms for suggestions.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:12:07 - Last edited on 26-Jan-2019 09:02:58 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Table of Contents

1.1 - Introduction
1.2 - Table of Contents (hello)
1.3 - Reasons
1.6 - What happens to the cc?
1.7 - New cc requirements
1.8 - New cc(t) requirements
1.9 - Emblems
2.1 - Amnesties
2.2 - The new combat cape
2.6 - FAQ
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:12:20 - Last edited on 03-Jan-2019 11:20:04 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Reasons

Uniquely amongst the capes of distinction, the cc does more ill than it does good to the game. The problem is that it is currently the best cape in-game in terms of stats and therefore high-levelled players feel compelled to obtain it. While one has always been able to argue that 'nobody is forcing you to get the cape', the retort 'but I need its superior stats for Slayer/tough bosses/rumble mode/...' is more than fair. Thus, players feel forced, whether they like it or not, to obtain the cape not just for the prestige but largely for the stats as well, and this leads to a multitude of problems. However, do see Big Storms's comments here.

For instance, some of the requirements, particularly for the trimmed cape, are extremely steep. A full set of profound decorative armour, rank 400 in Mobilising Armies, the best ogre hat... While these are definitely things that true completion of the game would warrant to some degree, they have absolutely nothing to do with prowess in combat. Thus, while a completionist cape may require these, a best-in-slot cape for use in combat should not. One solution would be to remove those requirements, but then it wouldn't be a completionist cape anymore. The obvious route, then, is to introduce a new best-in-slot cape with more appropriate requirements and revamp the cc to be solely a prestige thing. Because currently, high requirements like these lead to massive problems, such as afk'ers in Castle Wars and MA, saboteurs, and that kind of stuff that kills the enjoyment in the game for other people (though the badly designed thaler system has also contributed to this, but that's a different story). By removing the cc's stats, only the truly dedicated players will 'go' for it - the ones that enjoy CW and MA and chompy hunting, without feeling 'forced' to get it because of its stats. Well, that wouldn't apply to everyone, but it'd probably go a good way thither.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:12:32 - Last edited on 04-Jan-2019 14:43:25 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Another issue is that developers have to limit the difficulty of new content in order to prevent complaints from the people who don't want to lose their cape. While, as before, the argument 'this counts as completing the content; if you don't want to play it/think it takes too long, then you should lose your cape, so stop complaining' is perfectly valid, so is the retort 'but it has brilliant stats and I need those for my regular gameplay (e.g. endgame bosses), therefore I am forced to complete this new content much faster than it is intended, so you shouldn't make the requirement so high'. Nix the stats, and the argument falls apart. Developers would be able to also add rewards to the most challenging parts of new updates, and require completionists to obtain these without depriving people of their combat bonuses. Compare this to the achievement system; achievements can be made arbitrarily difficult (see some of the suggestions in my forum thread! :D) precisely because they're simply for fun and don't come with any rewards (let alone such superior rewards such as best-in-slot stats). There is a caveat here, of course, as adding arbitrarily difficult requirements (within reason of course) that take a long time to get, coupled with the frequency of updates, means that nobody would ever have a cc due to constantly having to work to 'reclaim' it (even if it doesn't have its stats anymore, one might still feel 'forced' to get it back because it's so prestigious). I have addressed this concern below.

Finally, the current requirements are very inconsistent. You have to unlock all spells, but not all prayers or abilities, just some. You have to unlock the bonecrusher upgrade, but not seedicide and herbicide. Where's the ability to make Ancient Magicks teletabs? The list goes on. Reworking everything from scratch would allow stuff to be streamlined across the board, and the achievement system helps with that immensely.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:12:43

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Being a completionist's cape, i.e. marking one's 'completion' of 'everything' the game has to offer, it's intended as something you earn after years of varied gameplay. In theory, nobody should ever have to purposefully try and obtain the cape, as it's supposed to be earnt 'eventually', as you play regularly and explore all of the game's content. But its superior stats have turned it into a goal by itself for many (and can you blame them? Some situations just require the best gear you can get), and thereby led to aforementioned problems. Also, certain people seem to have a mindset that they 'must' get the cape even if they don't like the content related to some of its requirements (this leads to e.g. the afk'ing and boosting in MA); hopefully if the cape's stats (but not its prestige!) are removed, they can accept that there is also the option to accept that you really don't want to play that content extensively and therefore forgo the cape.

All in all, not only does it not make sense for the cc to have such good combat stats, the desire for which causes major problems in various pieces of content, the method of earning it is also riddled with inconsistency and illogicality, whereas the player-felt necessity of holding on to the cape once earnt leads to problems with unreleased content. Needless to say, it's time for change.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:12:52

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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What happens to the cc

The completionist cape would be changed as follows:
- Its stats are vastly reduced to those of a regular skillcape (or it is made completely cosmetic).
- It keeps all of its customisations and emotes. Unlocking it would automatically also unlock an override version that inherits your customisations, if that is technically feasible.
- It would lose its combat-related special effects too, with the exception of the ability to hold three skillcape perks. It would still be able to teleport to the Max Guild (the max cape would retain these two as well, requiring all skillcapes after all), and inherit the effects of the Ardougne cloak and Jerrod's cape.
- Its other effects would be transferred to the new best-in-slot combat cape; that is, Ava's devices' ammo retrieval, the TzHaar capes' bonus, spirit cape effect and the bonesack(e)'s teleport.
- Its requirements, and those of the trimming, would have to be revised from scratch, making use of the new achievement system. A general guideline is found below.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:13:16

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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+++
CC requirements
+++
The completionist cape would require:
- Level 99 in all skills
- A quest cape
- All achievement diaries (= exploration achievements excluding lodestone, Menaphos and The Arc) completed
- All music tracks unlocked
- All miniquests completed
- 500 total boss kills, spread over at least five bosses (replacing the Reaper title in particular)
- Intermediate experience with each minigame, D&D and skill training area (by this I mean e.g. Artisans' Workshop, Herblore Habitat, Livid Farm), recorded through (as of yet mostly non-existing) achievements or trackable unlocks, e.g.
* BA: Kill the Penance King once (is an achievement)
* FF: Obtain the fishing outfit (outfit untradeable; can be tracked)
* CW: Display any set of decorative armour in your POH (would be an achievement)
* DT: Fight each boss at least once (can be tracked as they're unlocked for freestyle)
* LF: Purchase the Teleport to South Falador spell from Pauline (is an achievement)
* FPF: Obtain a score of at least 1500 (would be an achievement)
* POP: Unlock the Skull region (can be tracked)
* SH: Complete Dahmaroc's statue once (can be tracked)
- A RuneScore requirement, something like 15,000 (just an example)
- Some miscellaneous requirements of not-too-cumbersome completeables, again tracked through achievements, e.g. obtained a frozen key, an imcando pickaxe, learnt Ourania Teleport and Bones to Peaches, learnt how to make ancient magicks, Arc and Menaphos teletabs, etc.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:13:20 - Last edited on 03-Jan-2019 11:13:43 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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+++
CC(t) requirements
+++
The trimmed cape would require even more thorough completion of the game, that is:
- A cc
- Level 120 in the relevant skills
- Most post-quest content fully explored (think Doric & Boric tasks and other stuff from the master quest cape that relates directly to (quest) gameplay and not just lore)
- 1000 total boss kills and Reaper title
- Unlock all spells, abilities and prayers/curses (that aren't dropped as super expensive codices)
- Extensive experience with or, where applicable, completion of each minigame, D&D and skill training area, once more recorded through achievements and unique rewards, e.g. (note that the thaler system would have to be removed/reworked first so that the unique minigame rewards cannot be obtained from afk'ing or the thaler shop)
* BA: Obtain all titles, insignias, lore books, pieces of armour (sans granite body) and weapons (can be tracked, e.g. via armour case)
* FF: Obtain the champion's tackle box (can be tracked)
* CW: Own three out of the five cosmetic capes
* DT: Unlock all achievements and the Survivor title
* LF: Unlock all of Pauline's spells
* FPF: Unlock the full factory outfit, rogue outfit and botanist's outfit
* POP: Complete all storylines, fully upgrade your port, complete all scrolls, obtain the tengu outfit
* SH: Complete Dahmaroc's statue in your POH
- A RuneScore requirement, something like 20,000 (just an example)
- Complete all non-cosmetic miscellaneous content, e.g.
* Complete each slayer challenge once
* Maximum Menaphos reputation (overall; not all districts)
* All minigame hybrid armour obtained (note that it can be purchased from Stanley Limelight's store, so that should be removed)
* All Meilyr combination recipes unlocked
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:14:15

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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These are just ideas and examples, not strict rules. In particular, the trimmed cape would be rid of ridiculous requirements like the profound decorative armour set or maximum Runespan esteem. But you ask, how can players show off those achievements then? Kudos to Rikornak for the following proposal!

+++
Emblems!
+++
So currently, the general rule is that the cc should be "complete most basic stuff, try out every piece of content" while the trimmed version is "additionally, get all useful unlockables and completeables and play every pieces of content extensively". But what about 'true' completion of content that demonstrates you're super dedicated and extremely good at it, but wouldn't be reasonable to ask of everyone as a requirement? How to show off that you got a super high score of 1800+ in Flash Powder Factory, or completed the drop log for Araxxi, or played 5000 Castle Wars games, or have obtained the (Insane) Final Boss title, or have a super high Conquest rating of over 5000, or have prestiged your Robber role in Heist 50 times, or obtained 200M Cooking xp? To those players I offer emblems, the ultimate way of customising your (trimmed) cc apart from choosing the fancy colour scheme.

Basically, completing super difficult endgame achievements such as the ones just listed (ideally every skill, boss, skill training area or D&D and minigame would get such an emblem-unlocking achievement - see thread in signature for suggestions!) would unlock an emblem you can add to your cape, like a sticker. These can be used to show off these specific achievements, proving you just went beyond trim. You could have, for instance, up to 5 emblems on your cape, fully customised by yourself. Getting 200M xp in a skill would unlock that skill icon; other content like minigames and bosses would have new custom icons - it shouldn't be too hard to come up with them.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:14:37 - Last edited on 03-Jan-2019 11:14:57 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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This way, both comp capes have difficult but humane requirements, whilst the true 'completers' and fans of certain pieces of content can really personalise their cape and show off their accomplishments! My only issue is that you would need a completionist cape to show off emblems in the first place, but why should e.g. a Conquest champion with a very high rating have 99 in all skills to get one? Therefore perhaps emblems should not be limited to the cc only. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:15:05

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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+++
'Amnesties'
+++
To address aforementioned problem of nobody ever owning the cape as a result of potentially extremely difficult requirements being added on a weekly basis, I propose that something similar to the Menaphos amnesty be put in place. I have three ideas:

1) The requirements involving new content are only added to the cape a month/two months/whatever after release, giving players more than enough time to get them at a leisurely pace, should they want to, or enjoy the cape a bit longer should they decide that they don't like the new content and therefore forgo ownership of the cape for the time being when the requirements are added.

2) New requirements are added in batches once every three/four months for everything released within that period since the last addition. This would also give players more time to play that content without feeling especially forced, while also allowing them to still play a variety of content if multiple requirements are on the list.

3) New requirements are added immediately, but players do not lose the ability to wear the cape. It does, however, become frayed and greyish until all new requirements are met. This way, people who decide they don't like the new content and thus forgo their right to the cape can still show off that they at one point owned it. This can also work with options 1 and 2.

I currently have no preference for either option, but would be in favour of the third; I would first need to hear what others have to say on this.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:15:19

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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The new cape

Finally, we replace the cc's best-in-slot status with an entirely new cape. I shall call it the RuneCape (RC) for now because I'm terrible with names. The idea is as follows; to assemble it would require shards that are obtained from various combat activities, so that's mostly bosses and combat minigames, but there's also shards to incorporate questing, Dungeoneering (which both feature tough bosses) and Slayer. I would suggest that the cape require level 99 in all or some combat skills (including Slayer and Summoning, excluding Prayer) to assemble, but that's up to debate. In my opinion, the shards dropped by bosses should be untradeable (seeing that bosses already have plenty of valuable drops and bosses are pretty popular anyway) while the minigame ones tradeable, to allow people that want the cape but don't like a particular minigame (perfectly plausible) to buy it from other players that do, and conversely to allow aficionados of those minigames to make some money from it if they don't need the shards themselves. These latter shards can of course be obtained multiple times; the untradeable ones just once, unless destroyed. An additional reason to make the minigame ones buyable is that most players will want the cape for Telos rather than Soul Wars, for instance, and I'm a supporter of having a level 80 equipment cap in PvP minigames anyway (excepting hybrid armour). Once the cape is made, the shards need not be gathered again if it is lost, but there is a hefty reclamation fee of course. There would be some kind of pouch to store the shards to save bank space.

To compensate for the loss of the former best-in-slot cape, owners of a cc would receive an amnesty item that increases the chances of obtaining the (untradeable) shards. Having completed the drop log for a certain boss would guarantee their shard on the next kill, with the exception of the TzHaar bosses (whose drop logs are very small and do not depend on luck).
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:15:29

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Below is a list of 24 suggested shards (a T means tradeable), with methods of how to obtain them. I've tried to allow them to be acquired from a variety of sources, to prevent certain pieces of content being 'farmed' for the shards, which is a problem with the current cc. The rarities vary by source, e.g. the Shard of the Dragonkin would be more common from the QBD than the KBD. Note that the prices etc. are just suggestions to get the idea of things; they are of course subject to debate. Where applicable, luck items boost the odds of getting a shard. Perhaps the Motherlode Maw could get an enhancer that slightly boosts the chance for each untradeable shard (and then current cc owners would get a few of those for free as mentioned above).

- Shard of the Abyss(T): Purchased from the Abyssal Knights with 100,000,000 shattered anima.
- Shard of Adventure: Purchased from Radimus Erkle for 5,000,000 coins if you have at least 300 Quest Points.
- Shard of the Anima Mundi: Very rare drop from the GWD2 faction bosses, more common in challenge mode.
- Shard of Ascendancy: Rare drop from the legiones.
- Shard of Chantli(T): Rare drop from Mazcab bosses.
- Shard of Chitin: Very rare drop from the Kalphite Queen, bit more common from her exiled counterpart, even more common from the King.
- Shard of Chivalry(T): Purchased from Lanthus for 500 Castle Wars tickets (any combination of silver and gold).
- Shard of Daemonheim(T): Very rare drop from Dungeoneering bosses, with greater odds on higher floors. Alternatively, it could be purchased from Marmaros with 1,000,000 tokens. The former option would first require the bosses' stats, broken by EoC, to be fixed.
- Shard of the Demonikin: Rare drop from Demon flash mobs, the Lesser demon champion, Kal'gerion demons, K'ril Tsutsaroth, tormented demons and glacors.
- Shard of Dominion(T): Very rarely found in the Dominion Tower rewards chest; more common if your run included harder bosses like Nomad.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:15:45 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2019 12:43:53 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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- Shard of the Dragonkin: Very rare drop from the King or Queen Black Dragon, Wildywyrms, rune and hydrix dragons, Astellarn, Flametongue, the black stone dragon or the Ambassador.
- Shard of the Elders(T): Purchased from the rewards mystic with 250 Stealing Creation reward points.
- Shard of Eternity: Very rare drop from the GWD bosses, more common from Nex and hard modes, even moreso from Nex: Angel of Death.
- Shard of Ferocity: Rare drop from the Corporeal Beast, Araxxi, the chaos elemental, the Dagannoth Kings, hard mode giant mole, the sanctum guardian, Masuta the Ascended or Seiryu.
- Shard of Gielinor: Rare drop from Vorago, Telos and Solak.
- Shard of Gloom(T): Found in the Columbarium or the Shade Catacombs or while on slayer assignments/contracts in the Slayer Tower, or very rarely from Temple Trekking monsters.
- Shard of the Hunter(T): Expensive reward from Mandrith, costing either 1000 Deathmatch or Bounty Hunter points.
- Shard of Infestation(T): Purchased for 500 Void Knight commendations.
- Shard of Jas(T): Purchased from Reggie for 1000 Fist of Guthix tokens.
- Shard of Obsidian(T): Very rare drop from TzTok-Jad and Har-Aken, from TokHaar-Hok in the Fight Cauldron, or from victory in the Fight Pits.
- Shard of Passing(T): Rare drop from the Magister and the Memory of Nomad, or bought from Soul Wars with 100 Zeal.
- Shard of Penance(T): Rare drop from the Penance King and Queen (extremely rare from her), or alternatively bought with 750 Honour Points in each role and 5 King kills.
- Shard of Shadows: Very rare drop from the Barrows chest (provided all eight wights have been slain) or more common from Rise of the Six.
- Shard of the Slayer(T): Very rare drop from monsters on a Slayer assignment, rarity scaling with the Slayer level required to kill them and the Slayer Master used.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:15:59

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Once you have all shards, you may bring them, along with something to use as a base like a TokHaar-Kal or reefwalker's cape or something, to the Mysterious Old Man. He will assemble the shards and the cape into an unfinished product and tell you that it has to be finished at a place hot enough to smelt dragon metal. One requires 99 Smithing (boostable and assistable) and a blast fusion hammer to finish the cape at the Dragon Forge. If the RC is lost, the Mysterious Old Man will gladly give you another one without asking for more shards...but it'll be quite expensive. Alternatively, you may reobtain some shards and give them to him to reduce his fee.

It should be plain that this way, the best-in-slot combat cape only requires you to have shown significant prowess in the forms of combat that the game has to offer; its stats are not locked behind completionist achievements that have nothing to do with combat. The finished cape would be untradeable I think, but there is something to say for making it tradeable as well, I guess. It would not degrade.

Like the cc currently, using a spirit cape and Ava's accumulator on the cape would consume them and the RuneCape would absorb their effects. Similarly, it'd have a Max Guild teleport if the max cape is owned. If the TokHaar-Kal is used as a base for the cape, the Shard of Obsidian is a bit pointless and can be removed from the list.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:16:08 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2019 12:45:33 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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FAQ

Here, some potential player concerns are addressed.

Isn't this just moving the problem of being forced to play content for the best cape from the cc to the RC?
No, it isn't. In the current situation, combat enthusiasts that want the best stats are required to play lots of completely irrelevant content for the cc; the RC requires content that is tailored to what a combat enthusiast is expected to enjoy. Therefore, they will generally also enjoy the road towards getting the cape, and besides about half of the shards are tradeable while the untradeable ones offer several alternatives. In fact, they may well get shards without actively seeking them because combat-related activities will generally be frequently played by those who might have interest in the RC anyway.

Why not just make the cc completely cosmetic?
That's also an option, but since it requires all skillcapes there is no reason it shouldn't inherit their stats as well.

The cc was originally released with a certain design in mind; this completely undermines that and is therefore bad.
Reasoning like that is sometimes applicable, but in this case it's an is-ought-fallacy. When the cape was released, the undeniable problems it has since created both for unreleased content and content like CW and MA were probably unforeseen. This solution is not perfect, but it's certainly much better than the current state of the cc.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:16:20

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Players who worked towards getting a cc are now being punished as they lose their best stats.
If you own a cc now, you'll probably also own one when the requirements are reworked, or be close to owning one. There'll be lots of shuffling around of stuff, but in general it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to reclaim it. There could potentially be an amnesty period of one or two months to get the new requirements for those that really don't want to lose their cc. As for the best-in-slot cape, yes, you'll lose that, but if you want it, you have been given some bonuses (e.g. the shard enhancers) to obtain the new one more quickly. If this is deemed insufficient, that can of course be discussed. But please bear in mind that this update is for the health of the game; desiring it not to happen because it would negatively impact you personally is an extremely selfish demand.

Why would I have to play [activity rewarding tradeable shard] for the RC? I don't like it.
Nobody's forcing you to get the cape, but if you feel forced to get it by its superior stats (as with the current cc), then note that the shards are tradeable; other players will happily sell you one on the GE. You can of course earn the money for it by killing some bosses, if that's more up your alley. The activity was included because it's a major combat activity and therefore should be represented.

Why would I have to play [activity rewarding untradeable shard] for the RC? I don't like it.
Nobody's forcing you to get the cape, but if you feel forced to get it by its superior stats (as with the current cc), then note that most of the shards have multiple sources of obtaining them, it's likely that you will find at least one of the alternatives less objectionable. The activity or boss was included because it's a major combat activity and therefore should be represented.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

03-Jan-2019 11:16:31

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Why would I have to play [any activity rewarding shards] for the RC? I don't like any of them!
If you don't like bosses, Slayer monsters and combat minigames, then you don't sound like you really enjoy combat much. Or at least that you like to stick to killing regular monsters - this is fine of course, but then you don't really have a need of the best combat cape, either. If you still want the cape but don't like the majority of activities that award its components, then I can only say that these activities represent a large variety of combat encounters the game has to offer and therefore make sense to require some participation in order to get the cape. Perhaps you'll discover you like some after all if you try them out!

Wouldn't the RC have the same problem of developers' being limited by how difficult they can make new combat content?
Good question.
Thanks!
The major difference is that the requirements for the RC (i.e. the collection of shards) are static, whereas the requirements for a cc are added to every few weeks.
Ah, I see. But then no new combat content would be represented.
That is the lesser evil in this case, yes. The alternative would be to add a new shard every time a notable combat activity or boss or whatever is released, thereby depriving RC owners of their cape and creating pretty much the same problems as with the current cc. The requirements already represent pretty much the entire spectrum of RuneScape combat as is, so not adding new combat updates as requirement is definitely the better option here. In some cases, it could be mended; e.g. if a new Raids boss is released it would become a new drop source for the Shard of Chantli. So new content could be incorporated into the cape without adding any new requirements, but in general having the current list as is should be the best way forward.
Why are you talking to yourself?
You try writing up this suggestion, mate. It's quite lengthy.
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03-Jan-2019 11:16:42

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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What would the relation between the RC and the reworked cc be?
Not much, other than the former's being a replacement for the latter as best cape in terms of stats. It'd also inherit some of the cc's former effects, such as compatibility with Ava's devices and spirit capes. Additionally, it's possible to have ownership of the RC be a requirement for the cc(t) (note that this is the converse of the current situation, wherein one has to complete all the completionist accomplishments in order to have the best combat cape), but that's up to debate. Probably better off as an emblem.

Why the mysterious old man?
Why not? A much better question is what he's planning with those shards...
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03-Jan-2019 11:16:54

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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scousy said:
As much as you dislike the afkers in castle wars, they actually benefit you because they cade and defend the castle flag preventing the other team from getting the flag. They aren't 100% Afk they will attack someone if they come. You only get 1 more ticket for winning so there's not enough incentive to win so most of them will play for a tie while the more skilled players will play for the win. Yes, it's possible to go into a castle with 50+ ppl attacking you and take their flag to ur side.


As for comp cape I was thinking reaper title can be purchased for 10k or 20k reaper points for others who don't want to do high level bosses. However they would still need to earn their reaper points while making comp difficult to get. I havn't read everything but I wouldn't mind a new endgame cape too while making comp cosmetic.

Hiya! Yeah, some do that, but there's literally dozens of people even without equipment just standing around in the castle or underground. If you attack them, they are almost immediately healed by teammates while others pile you. Technically they're not causing very much harm to the team (apart from getting thaler without actually playing, but that's for the thaler rework) but the very fact that they're there doing nothig rather than playing some other content they might enjoy is a problem.

I have no opinion about the reaper title either way, but saw many complaints about it so figured it should be included (or excluded if you will :P) with the rework. It's mostly the inconsistency of other requirements that bugs me. E.g. for trim you need to have played a ridiculous amount of CW (and previously MA) whereas you needn't ever have touched Soul Wars and Trouble Brewing apart from the music.
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03-Jan-2019 14:44:56

LordáDrakan

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AngelBarbela said:
Revamping it, to where the stats are taken away, is a huge slap in the face to those of us who acquired it. I put in many month's work into it.

Hm, isn't the prospect of a new cape with the same stats as well as an amnesty period in order to obtain it sufficient? Mind that it *is* for the health of the game, since there's definitely things wrong with the cape. :|
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04-Jan-2019 09:00:59

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Thanks for the comments, Big Storms, I fully agree. Perhaps indeed I am overemphasising the desire for the combat stats of the cape (I don't really have any sources for this); people going after it with the wrong mentality is definitely a bigger problem, and ever so harder to fix.

Splitting it into separate capes for minigames etc. in similar nature to the master quest cape sounds like an excellent idea. Of course we'd need scores of new achievements for that but hey that's only a good thing. :P I'll try to reference your post somewhere in the OP.
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04-Jan-2019 14:42:21

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Hm, you appear to be assuming that I am envious of people with the cape for its stats or want to spite them because I don't have it, or something. Be assured this is not the case; I'd be fine with its stats if they didn't have such a horrible effect on the game, due to the cape's desirability to non-completionists as a result of them. I agree with you that people should work hard in order to reap success, etc. but that has nothing to do with this suggestion. :|

Using your analogy, the house you built should be demolished not because of a jealous neighbour but because its construction is threatening the entire street to collapse.

The cape should be nerfed not to Ĺappease other types of playersĺ but because it is sick, damaging content both existing and forthcoming. In my opinion, getting rid of its superior stats (and giving people who got the cape for its stats a substitute) is the best way to ensure that people donĺt explicitly ôgo forö the cape in order to use it for combat. It's not ideal because, yes, itĺll invalidate some of the work current compers have done, but it's for the health of the game. I hope you understand.

As for the Reaper, I personally don't care either way, but I've heard the complaint multitudinously and therefore included it.
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09-Jan-2019 13:26:52

LordáDrakan

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The problem is that people who are completing all the content are damaging said content in the process, even extending this effect to unreleased content (i.e. ôno Jagex don't make it hard or long because I want to keep this capeö). Removing the stats would be a bit unfair to players who worked hard to get the cape, but keep in mind:

i) This shouldn't be a cape one should work towards, rather one you eventually obtain just by playing lots of stuff.
ii) It's damaging the health of the game. Iĺd rather upset a few players than continue supporting broken content. In fact, broken content breaking other content.
iii) It's not ônearly every piece of contentö unfortunately. Apart from skills and quests, it's very selective; a few things you need to have played a LOT, yet some things not at all. The requirements have to be rebuilt from scratch, really.

Completionist status (and a pretty cape) should be sufficient reward for completionists. Players who want the cape only for its stats aren't completionists, that's the core of the problem; they're combat enthusiasts. Hence the suggested replacement best-in-slot cape and the amnesties for the transition.

Leaving the current stats, requirements and functions alone just not to upset cape owners is precisely what should not be done. Those things form the problem that is we're trying to solve (this thread is just my take on that); upsetting current cape owners is the lesser evil here, and should be borne. In fact, I would say being upset by the proposed changes, here or elsewhere, is just a sign one is being very selfish and does not care about the game's health at all. That said, I have suggested the amnesty thing, which, I think, is quite lenient a compromise. If it'd been up to me, I'd have done no such thing, but this is extending a hand, as it were,
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10-Jan-2019 13:07:18

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:
Why in Guthix's name should Completionist status not be something worth working towards?

I also think you are lumping trim comp and regular comp in the same boat when you say it's supporting broken content. Regular comp doesn't do that, you just play each piece of content as it's released to maintain the cape, trim comp is the one where you afk in mini-games to do it.

I feel like I deserve to have a highly functional item that offers a statistical advantage and sets me apart from the crowd.

Easyscaping the best stat cape in the game and rendering completion status as nothing but a cosmetic override will undoubtedly result in making many completionists throw in the towel.

Because that means people will try and get the requirements not because they like that particular piece of content, but solely to tick off the requirement. I.e. people playing something (and not a bit, but extensively) not necessarily for fun, which is not very nice for those people (but hey that is their problem), but more importantly leads to the content being abused (e.g. afk'ing). Which is also why the requirements need reworking; no normal person would ever play 5k CW games/get profound decorative armour or whatever, only a handful of true fans would. And yet itĺs required, whereas most otherm minigames and D&Ds are not represented at all...

Perhaps this is more of a trim problem, yes, so hopefully a full requirement rework would fix that, but hey, canĺt make the trimmed cape cosmetic without touching the comp one.

Sure, you may deserve a highly functional item; but it should not be this cape, due to all thee problems mentioned. Personally I donĺt see how a nerf could seriously upset anyone;
- completionists who got the cape for the prestige because they like achievements and play the game a lot donĺt care about the stats
- combat enthusiasts who got the cape for its stats and effects don't care about the prestige and should
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11-Jan-2019 08:11:20

LordáDrakan

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be content with the replacment BiS cape and the amnesties for obtaining it
- people who want both can have both..

Mind I donĺt want to make anything easy. The comp capes would still have super high requirements. Probably higher than now, in fact, since they would represent all content rather than some/most as is the current case. The replacement BiS combat cape would too be very difficult to obtain, but importantly it would require only combat itself to obtain and no other tasks that have nothing to do with combat.

There are two main problems here to tackle. First, the requirements are inconsistent and messy. They do not cover all content; the content that they do cover can have very basic and easy requirements, or ridiculously hard ones. This needs to be revised. Second, a cape with generally non-combat requirements has BiS combat stats, which makes no sense. This makes the item very desirable only for its stats to combat enthusiasts, which is awful for three reasons:
i) Combat players feel forced to get it for its stats, thus playing content they donĺt really enjoy - but hey this is their own problem. They should play whatever they (donĺt) want.
ii) In obtaining the requirements, content is abused and broken. In the case of e.g. the CW requirement, pretty much everyone, not just the combat guys, does this, because that requirement is just ridiculously high. As you remarked, this is more of a trim problem, but none the less problematic. But then regular comp has things like Reaper leechers etc.
iii) Developers are limited in what they can do with new content, because adding new requirements will upset the people who got the cape for its stats, as theyĺll often be unrelated to combat.

Therefore, apart from reworking the requirements, the BiS-stats part of the cape needs to be split from the prestigious look-at-me-Iĺm-a-jack-of-all-trades part. The comp cape would get no or max cape stats but retain its prestige, whereas
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11-Jan-2019 08:23:05

LordáDrakan

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the people who just want the stats and functionality can have that, but on a different cape which requires combat prowess to obtain, instead of prowess in casting Bones to Peaches or chopping bamboo on Tuai Leit. Looking at the comp cape requirements and asking ôif I just want the stats for combat, should I have to do this?ö should hopefully lead to the conclusion that the split is a good way forward.

Yes, the shift will cause inconvenience to current cape owners, but hence the proposed amnesty, and also please remember itĺs for the good of the game. Which is more important than oneĺs ego.

I hope Iĺve clarified myself. :) Thanks for the feedback by the way: everything is helpful as long as itĺs constructive.
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11-Jan-2019 08:27:04

LordáDrakan

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Uncle Pob said:
having to constantly do content irrespective of whether the content is even good, fun, or worth doing besides for Comp it's also very offputting.

Yep, that has to be addressed as well. I suggested three options for how a cape is maintained and new requirements are added, but there's probably better solutions.

Solivagus said:
@Lord Drakan
Okay, I do get where you are coming from. But I do not like splitting the two and calling either one completionism. If you are splitting the cape neither one should be called the completionist cape and instead combining the two should make the "completionist cape", which would functionally be the exact same thing that already exists now.

However, I must point out that the bulk of the defensive stats of the completionist cape come from player owned ports (65 all defence and +300hp), which is decidedly non-combat, meaning that the stats of the combat cape would have to be lower than the stats of the current completionist cape and the stats of the hypothetical achievement cape would wind up having better defence.

On another note, I feel compelled to point out that we are playing an MMORPG. Role-playing games are replete with busywork for good items. Many of your same arguments could be used against the max cape or the task set. The entire game is doing busywork to unlock something slightly better, you have been playing for minimum 8 years, you should know that.

Heugh, the exact stats wonĺt be fun to determine. If the comp cape will come to require some ports completion (it should require some, as itĺs a minigame and ideally it should require having played each minigame to some degree) that includes the reefwalker cape, then it makes sense for the comp cape to inherit the latterĺs stats. Of course the comp cape does and should also require combat stuff, but not to the degree that BiS stats are warranted, in my opinion.
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11-Jan-2019 17:25:54

LordáDrakan

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Actually, thatĺs not a hard principle. In theory the cape could have any stats and I couldnĺt care less, but given the problems that exist in due part as a result of the statsĺ desirability, thereĺs an unfortunate problem. If just reassessing and reworking the requirements consistently without touching the stats would solve everything then yay, but I fear it wonĺt. The cape can keep decent stats for all I care (TokHaar-Kal or reefwalker or whatever) but uniquely BiS just isnĺt working.

And I fully agree on your last point (just over 12 years now ^_^) but most unfortunately, the comp cape (or the trimmed one or whatever) is causing problems and has a flawed and inconsistent design, unlike the max cape and diaries.
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11-Jan-2019 17:29:27

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:

@Lord Drakan

your D&D and minigame cape will have the exact same effect trim comp already has. people are going to afk in minigames for it.

Not if itĺs purely cosmetic and the requirements cannot be afkĺd. :) (see achievement suggestions linked in signature, for example; they almost all require regular or very extensive gameplay)
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13-Jan-2019 07:58:10

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:
LordáDrakan said:
Solivagus said:

@Lord Drakan

your D&D and minigame cape will have the exact same effect trim comp already has. people are going to afk in minigames for it.

Not if itĺs purely cosmetic and the requirements cannot be afkĺd. :) (see achievement suggestions linked in signature, for example; they almost all require regular or very extensive gameplay)


You have said numerous times that people afking in minigames is an issue. Some are afking for trim comp. Trim comp has *no* benefit over regular comp besides having gold smoke instead of white. So they are already afking for pure cosmetics.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, if there are achievements linked to something, people are going to take the path of least resistance to obtain them and are going to do them even if they don't enjoy it. That is the mindset of most completionists.

Jagex is probably not going to do anything about afkers in minigames either, since it would deal a mortal blow to already dying minigames in a sparsely populated MMORPG. It also would require dev time from their non-existent dev team. A lot of people don't really care for RS3's combat too, so it isn't going to reinvigorate the dead minigames not many people wanted to play in the first place.

There are also people who afk in minigames purely for thaler and not for completionist requirements so changing the completionist requirements isn't going to do anything about them either.

The thaler system needs a full rework, yes. And yes, afk'ing in minigames is an issue. I think the main reason people are afk'ing CW (except being lazy or whatever) is that the requirement is just so ridiculously high you can hardly get it by normal gameplay. That said, the requirement is inherently afk'able. If a hypothetical minigame cape existed, one would have to ensure that none of its requirements would be afk'able.
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13-Jan-2019 16:19:45

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:
@Lord Drakan
They aren't going to fix afking in minigames. Case in point. Right now as I type this I am training my combat while paying no attention so I can level up my armour created with resources that can be collected afk and can be smithed together, also afk. Jagex is turning RS3 into a mobile game; which means easy but tediously long gameplay, minimal interaction with a heaping dose of MTX. The days of looking at your screen to play games appears to be (sadly) over.

Then we should move to OSRS. Indeed Jagex have a nasty stance on afk'ing...by not condemning it. :( Recent-ish large updates like the BA and PC reworks and Heist were great, though, so I retain a tiny bit of hope.
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14-Jan-2019 07:16:33

LordáDrakan

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AriskáGud said:
@Lord Drakan
It's funny, that almost every time questions like this come up, it's from people that are nowhere near meeting the requirements for the content, and start making assumptions about something they have no idea about.
Looking at your account, don't know if its your alt and you have comp on your main, but as others have already said, to remove the stats of the cape at this stage is wrong on so many levels.

*shrugs* I pretty much have all requirements except killing all bosses once and maxing (and a handful of easy/quick requirements locked by skill level), which I don't intend to do just for the sake of it. But that's beside the point. If I had a comp, or a trimmed comp, I'd still be in favour of removing its stats/reducing them to max cape level. Because it's for the health of the game, etc. (see previous posts)

I'm curious as to what you mean by "at this stage", though. Is it that, yes, the cape was wrongly designed to have such stats, but players have got used to it therefore it shuld not be fixed? Because that is a terrible way of thinking. It's why PvM (except bosses and monsters released after 2012) and Dungeoneering are still a joke as of EoC.
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15-Jan-2019 07:57:14

LordáDrakan

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What Big Storms said above. So much what he said.

On a side note, just did 'Phite Club and got the Altar Native achievement. Like the other Menaphos quests, good dialogue, but otherwise pretty bad. But yay, quest cape regained after a year and a half. :)
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15-Jan-2019 10:53:06

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:
@Uncle Pob

As I pointed out earlier, the stats from the completionist cape come from the superior reefwalker cape, which is from a minigame/D&D thing. Making the BIS cape combat only would result in entire pieces of content being rendered as merely arbitrary completionist tasks as opposed to being necessary for the stats and functionality.

Can require the reefwalker or kiln cape(s) as the basis.
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15-Jan-2019 17:30:26

LordáDrakan

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Solivagus said:
LordáDrakan said:
Solivagus said:
@Uncle Pob

As I pointed out earlier, the stats from the completionist cape come from the superior reefwalker cape, which is from a minigame/D&D thing. Making the BIS cape combat only would result in entire pieces of content being rendered as merely arbitrary completionist tasks as opposed to being necessary for the stats and functionality.

Can require the reefwalker or kiln cape(s) as the basis.


So then we are back to the exact same thing we're at right now, you have to do a whole crap load of non-combat requirements for your combat cape. Know what else should be a requirement for the combat cape? livid farm. why? it unlocks some of the most useful combat spells in the game, so does desert treasure. Should probably also have prifddnas unlocked for morvrans slayer dungeon challenge and "famous" challenge. Which brings me to another point: quests. there would need to be a laundry list of quest requirements for this cape. Yet, you and Uncle Pob seem to be in agreement that combatants shouldn't have to do skilling, minigames and quests for their cape. This cape would wind up having requirements of nearly 80+ in most skills and about ~270 quest points and about a month of PoP.

Quests feature combat prominently, therefore there'd be some questing required (I think I suggested 300 QP in the OP for one of the shards). Ports require just one level 90 skill out of, what is it, 12 or something, including Slayer. Fight Kiln and Caves are pure combat.

I don't necessarily think it should be a combat-oriented comp cape (i.e. unlock/complete everything relevant to combat), but more along the lines of the shards I suggested (have experience in every boss fight and combat minigame). But that's up for discussion, hence the thread. :)

To be fair, given BiS stats, 80+ levels, 270 QP and a mere month of PoP don't seem much...
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16-Jan-2019 08:05:06

LordáDrakan

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Rottop12 said:
Didn't Mod Jack also say there would be a poll this week? Did I miss it or something?

I hope not... many people would vote for whatever option is the least change and the most 'easyscape' out of egoism.

Deltaslug said:
Drakan,
Why hasn't "just make it a cosmetic override you unlock" been brought up/discussed?

Dunno, I didn't really think about that much. :P Feel free to suggest stuff.
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18-Jan-2019 08:30:42

LordáDrakan

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To be honest, up till now, I was not aware at all of the problems with bossing, and that players actually demand money for taking inexperienced people along who just want a kill (for whatever reason). It's a verg nasty practice, especially when, as Smasherley said, honest and nice players get flamed for it. The bossing aspect of the new comp cape should therefore get some extra attention.

Mr Rey Ray; I've actually suggested a replacement for the BiS cape in this thread, which should take much longer than a few hours to get and tests your combat prowess across the board. Bossing, pvm, pvp and more. Would that be agreeable?
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27-Jan-2019 08:37:35

LordáDrakan

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Three capes from the TokHaar Kiln, under the ground.

Seven from Lord Nomad, in his hall of souls.

Nine from milestone looms, doomed to max.

One for the Dark Leech, on his crystal throne.

In the land called Max Guild, where the shadows lie.
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05-Feb-2019 17:18:15

LordáDrakan

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Yoiola said:
This thread has some very interesting ideas. I sure hope that someone from jagex is reading through this all and that a thread like this one has the attention it deserves despite not being on reddit. in other words, I hope at least some Jagex mods are assigned to reading carefully the forum's feedback and not only other platforms.

Mod Jack (designer on this update) said he's read it, at the very least. :) Thanks for your support!
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05-Mar-2019 19:45:34

LordáDrakan

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Ranny said:
Footnote since everyone has forgotten:
How the actual blazing F did we move past a bank rework, and get an comparatively totally unneeded comp rework. Why don't you complete the first task you set out for Jagex.....

To be fair, while it's bad practise to start/promise something and then abandon it, the bank rework just consisted of a number of nice-to-have features, but was in no way needed or anything, whereas the comp cape is actively breaking the game.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

23-Apr-2019 07:59:59

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