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Armadyl Is Not Ready

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Ehecoatl

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Armadyl is not ready, not ready that is to uphold and follow his own ideals. He is not ready to follow his own words and achieve the goal that he has endorsed time and time again. For example during the Bird and the Beast 2nd world event Armadyl had this to say about living in harmony.

"This is not necessarily a dream. It can be achieved through cooperation and mutual respect." However when have we ever seen Armadyl do these things? In fact I have seen quite the opposite from him including the following in no particular order.

1.) During MPD he is arrogant, attacking the other gods whilst seeing himself as the only level headed among them. He tells Zamorak there is no place for his ideals in this world, and that Saradomin is a hypocrite.

2.) Used a divine weapon to begin a war with Bandos and in so doing sent his endangered race to die once again.

3.) Threw a fit upon seeing Zamorak in the maze during Sliske Endgame, threatening to kill him in a fit of rage.

These are the examples I could come up with just off the top of my head, but how are we supposed to believe that Armadyl could ever bring races/gods together? Am I missing something?

You will learn that even the gods walk in darkness, and only Sliske knows the way.

13-Jan-2017 04:19:38

Frostcaping

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You're missing that he united the warring tribes of Aviansie on his homeworld. Now he hopes to do the same for all gods and mortals on Gielinor.

Suffice to say, though, gods are somewhat trickier to deal with. When you're bringing peace to a harsh planet's small population that can barely survive even without killing each other, it's much easier to make a case for mutual cooperation. When you're asking gods like Saradomin and Zamorak to let go of some of their power/ideology to better others, it's much harder for them to see it as a benefit -- especially when everyone's convinced that their own path is the right one.

Note that I'm not saying he's a perfect god. He's still very much flawed, and hypocritical in many respects -- something he freely admits. See his pre-Sliske's Endgame dialogue:

To answer your points directly:

1) Armadyl is pretty level-headed throughout MPD. He's certainly the most reasonable of the major gods there. Note the differences in tone here:

Original message details are unavailable.
Armadyl: ...there is no place for your theory of chaos in a peaceful world.
Zamorak: Then stop hiding behind words and prove yourself in combat, coward.
Bandos: Haha! Do it, I can't wait to watch you decimate each other.

Armadyl's calmly making a point. Zamorak's provoking him. Bandos is standing at the side going "fight, fight, fight", but then what else would you expect from Bandos? And speaking of which...

2)

Original message details are unavailable.
Some gods would never take the path of harmony. In earlier ages, I'd be persistent in arguing with them. That Armadyl died during the God Wars: now, I am reborn like the phoenix, and I will kill them if I have to.

It's clear that Big High War God and peace on Gielinor could not co-exist. Yes, Armadyl risked his own people in doing so, but that's something he came to regret. Again, see his pre-Sliske's Endgame dialogue -- the reason behind him taking only a few into the maze.

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13-Jan-2017 05:10:15

Frostcaping

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I'd also like to bring to attention this possible piece of dialogue in Sliske's Endgame:

Original message details are unavailable.
Seren: Armadyl, the god of justice. Yet here you are, taking part in a game that was encouraged by murder; to many cultures the worst of crimes. The image most would have of such a god, would be one repulsed by this event. But instead you were one of the very first to actually commit that crime.
Armadyl: No, that's not what it was, it wasn't murder...it was... Self-defence.
Seren: Was it so? I can see that, but did you not start building your war machines long before there was a real threat?
Armadyl: I... I knew what he was going to do... I knew the danger he represented...
Seren: Forgive me, this is not admonishment. I see why you did what you did. I understand, but it is not the path that an avatar of justice would take. As justice can only be administered once a crime has been committed. Not before.
Armadyl: I... I think we're done here.
Seren: Did you not want to talk about something?
Armadyl: Another time perhaps. I...need to think...

Now, I don't quite agree with this. Bandos had already committed the crimes in question, in insisting on waging endless wars -- and brazenly displayed a refusal to repent. But I think this demonstrates one of Armadyl's greatest virtues: he listens to criticism and takes it on board. Go through the Sliske's Endgame transcript and see all the points at which Armadyl's flaws are pointed out. More often than not, he's being criticised for something -- and he acknowledges it with no trace of stubborn pride or refusal. His encounter with Zamorak in the maze itself is another example of this, which brings us to:

3) Yes, Armadyl and Zamorak's interactions before the maze were far from civil. But note how it takes place: Armadyl's passive-aggressive towards him as soon as he drops in, but Zamorak jumps on that to rile him up. Only then does Armadyl threaten him directly.

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13-Jan-2017 05:10:37 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2017 05:20:55 by Frostcaping

Frostcaping

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This is notably different from their interactions in MPD. Armadyl certainly has less of the high ground here. But I think it helps to consider it in context. Zamorak wiping out the majority of the Aviansie in the destruction of Forinthry has long since been known, but it was only earlier in this quest that we learnt about Obi'Sooth in particular having been caught in the blast. We didn't know this in MPD, but we do in SE, so it makes sense in terms of storytelling for Armadyl to be having a more visceral personal reaction at this point. (It's certainly not unprecedented for normally peaceful gods to be driven to violence over the death of loved ones. The pacifist Guthix was driven to kill Skagaroth after the death of his daughter, and we have a similar case here with Armadyl and his husband -- granted, with thousands of years in between, but wounds like that don't fade easily. Especially when followed by years of solitude.)

Yes, this doesn't work so well as an in-universe explanation -- in which case, I'd posit that maybe Armadyl's conduct with Bandos has made him overconfident. He's dealt with one threat to Gielinor. He'll deal with another. And I acknowledge that this doesn't show him in the best possible light -- as I said, he's far from perfect...

No time to write more for now but on one last note, I'd just like to point out that Armadyl and Zamorak's interaction in the maze is notably calmer by the end. Armadyl's last line is particularly pertinent.

Original message details are unavailable.
*Sigh* You might be right. I do blame myself and rightly so. But I am never going to forgive you Zamorak. I won't strike you down today, but I will not mourn if another does it for me.

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13-Jan-2017 05:21:09 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2017 05:29:27 by Frostcaping

Apr

2013

ZAmorakZaros

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Frostcaping said:
Suffice to say, though, gods are somewhat trickier to deal with. When you're bringing peace to a harsh planet's small population that can barely survive even without killing each other, it's much easier to make a case for mutual cooperation.
By that logic, Zamorak should be the most cooperative of them all... NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

13-Jan-2017 06:48:31

Frostcaping

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ZAmorakZaros said:
Frostcaping said:
Suffice to say, though, gods are somewhat trickier to deal with. When you're bringing peace to a harsh planet's small population that can barely survive even without killing each other, it's much easier to make a case for mutual cooperation.
By that logic, Zamorak should be the most cooperative of them all...

Alright, you got me there...! But I think the point still stands, just with a bit of modification.

There are distinct cultural differences between the Aviansie and the Mahjarrat. The Aviansie were already in tribes when Armadyl united them -- it's not as much of a change to go from being in several tribes to one big one.

The Mahjarrat are a tribe in themselves, but one that's now so small (and so divided, first along Zamorakian/Zarosian lines and then with their own personal agendas) that it's practically every individual for themselves. And a group of individuals with different agendas, alignments, often seeing no good reason to work together... that sounds a lot more like the situation with the gods.

Also, suffice to say, Zamorak's ideology and mutual cooperation/harmony/all that jazz do not go well together. He undeniably cares deeply for his fellow Mahjarrat, and he manages to maintain strong links of loyalty with some of them, but the chaos and conflict between them are most likely to keep them apart.

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13-Jan-2017 07:45:31

Apr

2013

ZAmorakZaros

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Frostcaping said:
ZAmorakZaros said:
Frostcaping said:
Suffice to say, though, gods are somewhat trickier to deal with. When you're bringing peace to a harsh planet's small population that can barely survive even without killing each other, it's much easier to make a case for mutual cooperation.
By that logic, Zamorak should be the most cooperative of them all...

Alright, you got me there...! But I think the point still stands, just with a bit of modification.

There are distinct cultural differences between the Aviansie and the Mahjarrat. The Aviansie were already in tribes when Armadyl united them -- it's not as much of a change to go from being in several tribes to one big one.

The Mahjarrat are a tribe in themselves, but one that's now so small (and so divided, first along Zamorakian/Zarosian lines and then with their own personal agendas) that it's practically every individual for themselves. And a group of individuals with different agendas, alignments, often seeing no good reason to work together... that sounds a lot more like the situation with the gods.

Also, suffice to say, Zamorak's ideology and mutual cooperation/harmony/all that jazz do not go well together. He undeniably cares deeply for his fellow Mahjarrat, and he manages to maintain strong links of loyalty with some of them, but the chaos and conflict between them are most likely to keep them apart.
Mahjarrats were not the only tribe on freneskae. There were 4 confirmed tribes and mahjarrat are the only ones known to be still alive NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

13-Jan-2017 09:29:37

Frostcaping

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ZAmorakZaros said:

Mahjarrats were not the only tribe on freneskae. There were 4 confirmed tribes and mahjarrat are the only ones known to be still alive

Yes, I never stated otherwise. Looks like we're not quite on the same page here -- I'm talking about the present day, in which you've just got Mahjarrat (and Hazeel I guess) left. That's all that's left for Zamorak to hypothetically unite, a la Armadyl. And while it's clear Zammy cares about 'em, they're ultimately very divided, very individualistic.

To clarify what I said earlier: there's a big difference between uniting a few smallish tribes and uniting a few remaining individuals. The tribes of Abbinah were already adapted to life in groups, so it's not too far of a leap to a bigger group (even if there were a few who resisted it). But the Mahjarrat are individualistic, agenda-driven and divided, so getting those strong individuals to form a cohesive group would be a monumental task -- similar to the task of uniting the gods.

(I guess in this respect, Kharshai is kinda the Mahjarrat version of Armadyl...! Though not exactly the same, for obvious reasons.)

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13-Jan-2017 10:05:13

Apr

2013

ZAmorakZaros

Posts: 7,545Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Frostcaping said:
ZAmorakZaros said:

Mahjarrats were not the only tribe on freneskae. There were 4 confirmed tribes and mahjarrat are the only ones known to be still alive

Yes, I never stated otherwise. Looks like we're not quite on the same page here -- I'm talking about the present day, in which you've just got Mahjarrat (and Hazeel I guess) left. That's all that's left for Zamorak to hypothetically unite, a la Armadyl. And while it's clear Zammy cares about 'em, they're ultimately very divided, very individualistic.

To clarify what I said earlier: there's a big difference between uniting a few smallish tribes and uniting a few remaining individuals. The tribes of Abbinah were already adapted to life in groups, so it's not too far of a leap to a bigger group (even if there were a few who resisted it). But the Mahjarrat are individualistic, agenda-driven and divided, so getting those strong individuals to form a cohesive group would be a monumental task -- similar to the task of uniting the gods.

(I guess in this respect, Kharshai is kinda the Mahjarrat version of Armadyl...! Though not exactly the same, for obvious reasons.)
Mybe all children of mah would have been easier to unite before there were only one tribe left NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

13-Jan-2017 12:54:28

Mar

2014

Hguoh

Posts: 7,455Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

ZAmorakZaros said:
Frostcaping said:
ZAmorakZaros said:

Mahjarrats were not the only tribe on freneskae. There were 4 confirmed tribes and mahjarrat are the only ones known to be still alive

Yes, I never stated otherwise. Looks like we're not quite on the same page here -- I'm talking about the present day, in which you've just got Mahjarrat (and Hazeel I guess) left. That's all that's left for Zamorak to hypothetically unite, a la Armadyl. And while it's clear Zammy cares about 'em, they're ultimately very divided, very individualistic.

To clarify what I said earlier: there's a big difference between uniting a few smallish tribes and uniting a few remaining individuals. The tribes of Abbinah were already adapted to life in groups, so it's not too far of a leap to a bigger group (even if there were a few who resisted it). But the Mahjarrat are individualistic, agenda-driven and divided, so getting those strong individuals to form a cohesive group would be a monumental task -- similar to the task of uniting the gods.

(I guess in this respect, Kharshai is kinda the Mahjarrat version of Armadyl...! Though not exactly the same, for obvious reasons.)
Mybe all children of mah would have been easier to unite before there were only one tribe left

I think you'd need to rewind the clock back to before Seren taught them the Ritual of Rejuvination.

At this point, however, I think the best you can get is what Children of Mah saw happen: they agree to stop fighting each other.

13-Jan-2017 15:03:45

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