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The Garlandia Accords

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MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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I'll bring up the same points I usually bring up.
Kopaka said:

Exile her. This would remove her from the public eye and allow Saradomin to proceed with preparations. The downside to this is it would be extremely likely for numerous Icyene to join her as a rebellious group since her ideas were simply put away but not addressed directly.

She was already exiled, in addition to having her wings ripped off she was left behind while the other Icyene migrated north. It's supposed to be a death sentence, the Icyene with their wings ripped off are left out in the cold where food supplies are scarce and their chance of actually surviving the winter is slim to none.

This is another one of the things that really makes me hate Saradomin he claims he hated ripping her wings off and didn't want to do it and regretted doing it immediately afterwards.
So why then did he also make the punishment a death sentence by banishing her?
I'm pretty sure he would've already made his point just by ripping her wings off. And if he regretted what he did and wanted to prove that he wasn't just cruel but actually supportive then letting her stay and helping her survive through the winter would've shown that.

It's basically like he just throws her away and hopes everyone will forget about it.
He does a similar thing to Sir Owen, not even showing any real remorse or any willingness to try and correct his mistake. And even telling Sir Owen that if he tries to talk to the Temple Knights they'll destroy him.
Now, why would they do that when Saradomin can just tell them not to?
Seems pretty obvious to me that Saradomin has no intention of telling them as he'd have to admit to another failure and he prefers to keep trying to run from his guilty conscience.
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23-Nov-2017 12:40:21 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 15:00:11 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Second, there are many more actions he could've taken than those.

Option 1:
Teleport the Icyene to another planet. Now some people may argue that he may not have had the power to do that and really I agree that until the mods say if he did or didn't we have no real way of knowing, however that doesn't mean that there isn't enough evidence to put forward a pretty strong position that he could've.
Firstly we know he's transported Icyene across worlds before, due to the fact that there are Icyene on Gilenor. Secondly, we know that he probably transported a large amount of them since he brought them over to Gilenor, along with large forces from various other races. This is ironic of course because he's shown he's not willing to transport them places to save them from dying in a war, but transporting them across worlds so that they can die in a war he's perfectly fine with.
Thirdly we know he knows about various different worlds that the Icyene could've inhabited, as he already transported humans to various different worlds to start colonies.
Fourthly, portals probably don't require that much energy to make, although there's a lot of contradictions with this the only real evidence to back up portals requiring a lot of energy is with what happened between Zaros and Loarnab. Of course, the mods have said they require a lot of energy. But Saradomin, Bandos, Armadyl and any other gods involved in the Gilenorian or Naragun God wars, would've also transported their armies with relative ease. Even Icthlarin managed to transport 500 Mahjarrat all the way from Frenesake to Gilenor.
Honestly, Saradomin could've even portalled in reinforcements to help the Icyene fight.
Or potentially, made a deal with the attackers and find them a better homeworld to live on.

Option 2:
Make a barrier, many other gods have shown the ability to do this, sure it takes a hell of a lot of energy, but unlike Guthix or Jododu Otoku he wouldn't have had to do it on a planet size scale.
(Continued)
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23-Nov-2017 12:41:41 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 17:12:26 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Zulkir said:
Summerleaf said:
Zulkir said:
and it's only by the good graces of her race helping her that she even lived through to today to tell us this story.

Can you source this?

Unfortunately I can't, if I'm wrong and she survived on her own initiative, then that's fair enough.


Her survivng completely on her own is what the transcripts from her wiki page imply.
"Player: What is life on New Domina without wings?
Garlandia: It is unforgiving. On our homeworld, we migrate regularly from one continent to another. This is to keep in the sun. To be in the cold is almost certain death. Without wings, I could not migrate. I endured the cold for what seemed like forever - basking in the fleeting sun. But I survived when others could not. I did not survive unscathed. My skin has shed its colour - a reminder of the sacrifice I made to be free of a god."
Although I know there have been a few additions and revisions of this story is in various places.

(Continued)
It's implied in the statements made by Garlandia that by that point Saradomin had already made the City of New Domina, a floating Island that would always follow the sun so that the Iycene didn't need to fly and migrate away from their homes but could stay in their homes all year round.
And I do have to give Saradomin credit there that's a really good and thoughtful gift, the thing is though, that it seems like this whole city is able to house all the Icyene.
And so back to my argument about barriers and not even having to spend the energy to make a barrier on a world scale... Well, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Really there were peaceful options all the time, but Saradomin just chose to ignore them and he does this time and time again.
He's the oldest of the Young Gods but by far the most naïve, inept & ignorant.
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23-Nov-2017 15:30:42 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 21:10:51 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Aeldari said:

Saradomin isn't a war monger, he cares deeply for his people and would not endanger them without a very good and compelling reason. Saradomin will use war as a means to reach an end goal yes, but with the regret he exudes when speaking to him it is clear that he carries a heavy burden from the choices he has made, and yet those choices have led to prosperity for multiple races.


Mmmhmm, so what was the reason for sending all his armies into Gilenor to die during the Second Age (and now 6th age) when he could've easily left them where they were letting them live out peaceful lives?
He didn't even have a following (on Gilenor) when he first landed on Gilenor.
And of course why was he even on Gilenor in the first place? Well, it's pretty heavily implied he just came there because his crown told him that was where some God Artifacts were at.
So he basically just came there because he wanted some more powerful artifacts and then decided to go into various wars to get them. That doesn't really seem like doing things for good reasons to me.
We know that in the second age Saradomin was fighting Zaros before Zamorak even betrayed him and from this quote, by Zaros pretty clearly shows that Saradomin was the aggressor.
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."
"Saradomin sought my secrets. Whether to steal them or bury them, I cannot say."
Seems like Saradomin is a pretty Warmongery guy to me.

Also if Saradomin really cares about all his people why hasn't he gone back to Teragard and sorted everything out yet?
You think he'd visit every now and then just to check how everyone is doing, he probably doesn't even visit any of the other human colonies he made.
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27-Nov-2017 21:59:53

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said:

Besides, even if the Icyene didn't know better, Saradomin's statements about the incident indicate that he did. His decision to punish Garlandia as he did was an utterly abysmal call on his part only surpassed by his decision to raze Askroth in the Naragun God Wars.


Askroth was only one city, I think helping to wipe out the whole Zarosian empire when he could've defended them from Zamorak instead surpasses that.
And although this doesn't surpass it it's also worth mentioning him burying The Sleeper/The submerged statue in water just off the coast of Entrana so that it couldn't warn anyone about the dangers of the Dragonkin or abusing the Elder artifacts.
I mean you know, obviously keeping a statue around that says how dangerous it would be to have those artifacts and how it would put the people using them at risk would be pretty problematic for him if any of the various people he teleported into Gilenor heard that, when his whole plan is for them to fight and die for him so he can get all the Elder artifacts. I wouldn't be really happy if someone told me that getting the thing we were all fighting and dying for would actually put us at more risk and end up killing more of us than just fighting for that thing already has.
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27-Nov-2017 22:07:07

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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MystLunaris said:

We know that in the second age Saradomin was fighting Zaros before Zamorak even betrayed him and from this quote, by Zaros pretty clearly shows that Saradomin was the aggressor.
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."
"Saradomin sought my secrets. Whether to steal them or bury them, I cannot say."
Seems like Saradomin is a pretty Warmongery guy to me.


Let me also put some further perspective on this because I ran out of space.
Although the second line of that is said in relation to Saradomin's continued aggression against the Zarosian's after Zaros' fall, I think it can be assumed that Saradomin was also interested in Zaros' secrets before that.

So let's say Zaros tries to negotiate with Saradomin early on to join under his banner or at least form some kind of alliance with him and offers him and his people resources and technological secrets etc and assures him that he and his people will live well under his rule and maybe even talks about the importance of an allegiance and of the danger of the Elder Gods, which Saradomin should know about from his previous encounter with The Sleeper.
Instead of agreeing to this offer and bringing more prosperity to his people and uniting with Zaros to help solve the problem of the Elder Gods and The Great Revision. Saradomin just decides to go "Nah fuck that, I'm gonna kill all of your people and my people instead, continue to ignore the threat of the Elder Gods and just try to steal all of your secrets even though you offered to give them to me peacefully anyway."
I really have no idea how anyone saw Saradomin as the God of Good or Wisdom.
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27-Nov-2017 22:24:39

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said:
MystLunaris said:
Askroth was only one city, I think helping to wipe out the whole Zarosian empire when he could've defended them from Zamorak instead surpasses that.


Considering the Zarosian Empire attacked him first on false intelligence (see Virtus Book: Torva Section), I wouldn't consider that as much of an atrocious decision as annihilating a city shortly after your arrival because some people who couldn't pose a threat to you unless you let them were rude to you.


Actually, that part of the book seems like it's set just before Zamorak's betrayal of Zaros and it's been said multiple times before that Zaros and Saradomin had fought way before then.
Although that was likely the slaughter of a bunch of innocent people due to false information given by Viggora, it was not the act that made Saradomin start fighting the Zarosians, they had fought plenty of times before that.
And, again, as a quote from Zaros himself
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."

Anyway, even then once Zamorak had taken Zaros out of the picture Saradomin could've offered the Zarosian's peace and shown them his good intentions by protecting them from being killed by Zamorak's forces, instead he teamed up with Zamorak to wipe them off the face of Gilenor.
And let's not forget that all the Zarosians (except Sliske) were willing to try and peacefully talk to Guthix rather than just kill him, so it seems likely that they would have taken a peaceful option if Saradomin had tried to give them one.
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27-Nov-2017 22:45:54 - Last edited on 27-Nov-2017 22:51:07 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said:
MystLunaris said:
Actually, that part of the book seems like it's set just before Zamorak's betrayal of Zaros and it's been said multiple times before that Zaros and Saradomin had fought way before then.
Although that was likely the slaughter of a bunch of innocent people due to false information given by Viggora, it was not the act that made Saradomin start fighting the Zarosians, they had fought plenty of times before that.


Source please?


I'll admit I can't actually find a source for that, the wiki page for Saradomin says he got involved in a war with Zaros during the Second Age, but it doesn't give a citation and I've been through multiple sources looking for one.
The closest I could actually give is that in the same part of the Virtus book you originally mentioned it talks about how Flamtaer, Torva's old hometown, was originally destroyed by ripper demons. We know Flamtaer is very close to Hallowvale so it may have been a Saradominist settlement before then.
However, it also goes on to say that the old temple originally left intact by the Ripper demons appeared to have been intentionally destroyed, presumably by the Saradominists, so it's unlikely that the town was originally Saradominist.
Most of Saradomin's involvement in Kandarin seems to have happened during the 3rd age, so that doesn't really seem to apply either.
It's still somewhat implied that Zaros was fighting with many of the other Gods on Gilenor until they all formed an alliance, that if any of them were attacked by Zaros they would all join in, which then lead to a cold war.
And Saradomin had a network of spies in Zaros' empire that knew about Zamorak's planned betrayal.
But I'll admit I can't find anything specifically talking about Zaros and Saradomin fighting each other during the Second Age.
I'd actually really like to see if a J-mod would make a statement about that.
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28-Nov-2017 23:56:00

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Ancient Drew said:
The quote from Mod Jack stated that it was from Saradomin's POV. That's not necessarily proof that Zaros conquered Saradominists militarily.


...No the part from Saradomin's perspective was the people then becoming slaves, them being militarily conquered is supposed to be 100% fact.
As backed up by Viggora's statement, which could only refer to his actions in the service of Zaros as he was cursed when Zaros was defeated by Zamorak.

P.S
Thank you very much for those quotes Cthris.
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01-Dec-2017 18:40:28 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2017 18:41:51 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said:
Perhaps the two had a truce at the time?


The wiki says
"Gods and by extension their empires make a pact that if any of their empires are attacked by the Zarosian Empire then an alliance of gods will declare war on Zaros. Unable to a defeat combined coalition of gods, Zarosian aggression is checked and a cold war begins amongst the various factions."

However, there isn't any source cited for this and I haven't seen anything about it in any documents.
I'd guess it was probably said by a mod somewhere if someone wants to go try and find the source.
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06-Dec-2017 23:14:53

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