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Raxxess

Raxxess

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To the above.

I don't think we should change back. I think we should stick with the status quo. I do think that we talk a lot about politics and other topics and some of it is more trollish. But in fairness we really do discuss lore, the thing is there has to be lore to discuss. We haven't been getting a lot of new lore but when we do get it we talk about it.

I don't think we need generals because when we had generals I felt it was a lot more toxic. People backstabbing to get other people banned or certain factions having more generals then another and enforcing rules on people they didn't like but letting friends completely slip by. This was the reason I left and I have to say without the generals it feels like a somewhat better experience.

In this situation its either we have an incredibly strict rule set monitored by generals (because when we had generals we also had complaints they rarely enforced any rules).

Or we just have really no limitations other than the individual ignoring people they don't want to deal with. I think the no limitations is the better choice.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

14-Mar-2016 16:52:08

Raxxess

Raxxess

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One reservation I did have and I talked to Dethal and others about this so I'll just put it out there.

Factions politics have long plagued the FC, and I myself am just kind of cautious over the fact that in terms of factions of our like 10 generals 5 are zamorakians, 4 Zarosians, and me as the Saradominists. I just think it would be nicer if things were a little more diverse but I know that dethal said he would consider this.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

16-Mar-2016 01:54:46

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Chaos Lupus said:
Raxxess said:
One reservation I did have and I talked to Dethal and others about this so I'll just put it out there.

Factions politics have long plagued the FC, and I myself am just kind of cautious over the fact that in terms of factions of our like 10 generals 5 are zamorakians, 4 Zarosians, and me as the Saradominists. I just think it would be nicer if things were a little more diverse but I know that dethal said he would consider this.


If we are going to switch back to generals, I don't think factions should have anything to do with it. If someone does let their faction influence their decisions, they aren't fit for the role and it should instead be given to someone else.


Yea but who decides that? And we know everyone to some extent has a history of bias and factionism its the lore community, and even if the person thinks they are above it others don't view the person that way.

I think its a valid concern. We can't say factions shouldn't play a part then make a vast majority of generals from the same clan and from the same faction.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

16-Mar-2016 02:19:27

Raxxess

Raxxess

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I did like the idea of not having generals.

Though I have to say I fully believe Dethal is genuinely doing what he thinks is best for the fc.

I think while we have honest disagreements we should at least have some sympathies for Dethal because it doesn't seem like he can do anything without some people being upset.

I'm not saying I support any system though I did prefer no generals, but then people complained that the quality of chat vastly declined and it became very trolly.

When we had elected generals some were upset that it was a popularity contest rather than who was genuinely the best candidate, and then most people just cut deals with each other (you vote for me I vote for you) and generals rarely ever had to be re-elected.

This current system obviously people either don't like that they weren't made a general or are upset and confused about how it happened or what the criteria was. (I don't really know what it was either, but I will say it has one of the more diverse set of generals we have had despite being a bit lopsided but hey its progress)
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

18-Mar-2016 03:48:34

Raxxess

Raxxess

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I honestly have a method I wanna just spit ball here for selecting generals. Its kind of crazy but I don't know for the lore community I think it could work.

Each member of the lore FC states the order of wizard they were placed in the quest rune memories. (blue, red, green, grey)

This will act as their representative voting body.

Those that are in the blue order vote for two in the red order to be a general. and vice versa.

The same goes with the green and grey. those in the green order vote for two generals from the grey order and then vice versa.

This system is really nerdy I get it but the thing is we have kind of established that biases exist and people don't always trust each other. But with this system it basically forces people that in lore stances often disagree into voting for someone on the opposing side they feel is the most respectable. In my eyes that will give us the best candidates for generals because then it will be people that hold respect from most groups in the FC.

I'm not going to go into ultra defense mode on this but just as a general I want to provide a solution that may make people happy.

(it also means voting in our chat has a prereq and that is rune memories which is kind of cool)
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

18-Mar-2016 04:07:02 - Last edited on 18-Mar-2016 04:09:51 by Raxxess

Raxxess

Raxxess

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I want to vote option 3.

Its nice to have democratic processes but these guidelines and rules will never stop piling on if you look at the old thread you can see tons of different lengthy proposed features that sound more like a congressional senate hearing rather than a video game FC and it will get to a point where no really remembers how these procedures work.

I have come to trust that Dethal has a genuine desire to see the FC work. Even when Aegis broke away from the FC Dethal actually made the effort to try and bring us back and work out anything to be on good terms. And then we discussed Supernatural.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

18-Mar-2016 20:17:30

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Chaos Lupus said:
In case it got buried, here are the options for the current vote:

Option 1: Revert back to a system with no generals

Option 2: Elect new generals

Option 3: Allow Dethal to manage everything


I may be wrong but I think Syrus and Rubic voted for 3 but they weren't officially added (their post seems to suggest that)
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

18-Mar-2016 22:29:59

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Eren Lapucet said:
I don't necessarily support option 1, but isn't that a bit unfair Hazeel? The alt attacks happened because a general kicked someone.

And I don't remember, but weren't previous alt attacks also related to people being banned/ostracized from the fc?


This does kind of hold some merit, in a lot of the previous alt attacks there could have been an argument that the general was a bit heavy handed.

I haven't had to anyone yet but have an instead gone for mediation or i will work to change the subject.

I think the happy medium between option 1 and option 3 is just having very limited circumstances for when a general intervenes. Mainly limited to when a debate or flame against two or more people is getting way out of hand, personal attacks, consistent spam ect.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Mar-2016 04:00:36

Raxxess

Raxxess

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I'd like to offer my input as far as rules.

We should just have the most basic rules.

No excessive spamming and generals only intervene when a conversation is truly getting toxic (excessive name calling, personal attacks, threats, or when a debate has become very heated and gone on for a long period of time with no one getting anywhere).

I really think we should advise generals to only act when it is absolutely necessary that way it can be a fair combo of option 1 and option 3.

And then we don't have all the rule change hearings and excessive moderation that is impossible to enforce and just declines activity in the chat.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

26-Mar-2016 15:44:04 - Last edited on 26-Mar-2016 15:44:32 by Raxxess

Raxxess

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Eren Lapucet said:
Also rules about politics, religion, and obscenity (eg. ***, some stuff Aegon says - no offense).


Honestly i'm probably taking the less popular position here, but I think we should allow discussion on politics/religion.

I mean we have to come to the realization that as quests take longer to release and bottle quests and other pieces of lore get cut we just don't have the ability to have an active chat that only discusses lore because there just isn't much to discuss, if it gets way out of hand then yes a general should intervene and stop it but it should be done on each individual occurrence rather than rules that limit the conversation or parts of it altogether.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

27-Mar-2016 03:13:47

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Hazeel said:
Yeah I stand corrected, the reddit is still there. I saw the screencap. Let me make this clear...


I normally am pretty unbiased when it comes to being a general granted I haven't really had to do much but I did vouch to give Ageon a second chance.

But in this sense I can't help but be biased. We have on one side a general who is pretty well respected by the lore community at large not just the fc and on the other coin someone who has been banned in the fc before because of instances of trolling and many events similar to this. I mean I don't really care much about faction bashing and I probably jokingly do it myself at times. But when that becomes all you do and its not something all in good fun or enjoyment I think its a problem not just for the people in the fc but for that person.

I know you and I have had our debates and stuff but its never taken too seriously.

With the individual in question I never get that vibe he takes this to an extreme that is borderline unhealthy and creepy. Normally factions don't matter in the FC but when you have an individual that takes this so seriously that they single out people in one faction to try mess with it kind of does matter. Is there any Saradominist that has ever had a positive experience with him?

I don't care as much normally because the ramblings are harmless, but when more than one person gets incredibly annoyed about it I don't see why a general shouldn't at their discretion kick that individual.

I mean in truth how is what he is doing now any different than what ancient did?
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 04:00:33 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2016 04:12:33 by Raxxess

Raxxess

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Half Centaur said:
Raxxess said:


But in this sense I can't help but be biased. We have on one side a general who is pretty well respected by the lore community at large not just the fc and on the other coin someone who has been banned in the fc before because of instances of trolling and many events similar to this. I mean I don't really care much about faction bashing and I probably jokingly do it myself at times. But when that becomes all you do and its not something all in good fun or enjoyment I think its a problem not just for the people in the fc but for that person.


What bothers me is how unexpected this was. I like Sky a lot, and we get a long fine. Which is why I even bothered pm'ing him to tell him no rules were being broken.

And when you take into consideration the fact that the topic had already shifted away from what he was being warned about- then that accuastion of trolling being the only thing he does falls away.

Faction bashing is not against the rules. He wasn't insulting people- he was insulting a character. There's no rule against that in the fc. And while he does love to bash Saradomin, if you cared you'd note thats not the only thing he does. We don't ban other people for only talking about camels, we can't ban someone for only talking about how bad they think Saradomin is.



Sky is pretty chill and I don't get what bothers you about it? This was a pretty justifiable kick he didn't explicitly and intentionally break any rules which is why he isn't banned it did look like he was intentionally trolling and starting drama sky saw fit to kick him, he was kicked and just joined right back.

Not sure what the issue is here why even have generals if there is a tribunal everytime someone gets kicked? I get it if it someone kicking someone just because they don't like them but given the instance and the history of the guy that was kicked I don't see an issue
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 04:58:07 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2016 05:11:41 by Raxxess

Raxxess

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Half Centaur said:


The kick was utterly unjustified. Look at the screen shots- Paladin wasn't even the only one trolling about Saradomin.

Making fun of Saradomin doesn't even count as trolling or starting drama. After Sky "warned him" we even changed topic.

There's an issue because the kick was unwarranted. I even told Sky this while he was warning him. We make fun of characters and elements of the game all the time, and I refuse to accept that when someone decides to make fun of Saradomin, we all have to get down on our knees and kick whoever dare disagree with the groupthink. It's ridiculous.

Did you even look at the screenshots?

Sky was starting more drama by insulting him and calling him a troll anyway, Paladin brought up something about Saradomin and Tuska, then Sky turns around, says he's tired of his fanfiction and faction bashing, brings up Paladin's guide for some reason, then says its filled with lies- then kicks Paladin. It was bizarre. That's why I'm disappointed.


No one is saying you can't bash Saradomin it happens all the time and no one gets kicked because you can have any opinion you want on him lol bashing Saradomin is the calling card of the fc its almost a past time at this point and no one is saying you can't do that

As I have pointed out and now looks like others have chimed in on this one person only faction bashes and takes it way beyond the game itself I don't see an issue with sky discerning that kicking some one before they caused a real @#$%-fest (which it looks he was trying to do that ) is an issue.

You can be disappointed with him all you want you can agree with what paladin was saying but at the end of the day he has built his own reputation for this kind of stuff especially when it comes to Saradomin Sky just kicked him before he started a @#$%-fest.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 13:03:35

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Jaina Katarn said:
So I might as well weigh in on the matter of the drama too...

It looks to me like it had little to do with faction-bashing and differences of opinion and everything to do with Paladin being an obnoxious troll who does nothing but shit-stir and annoy people. I don't even like Saradomin or most of his major (character) followers that much and I think Paladin is obnoxious and annoying, and that he needs to cut it out with his usual song and dance. He might be a milder and less toxic troll than Egg was (and I've already apologized profusely for not coming clean about that when I should've but I'm digressing), but he's still being disruptive and getting on people's nerves--and I might also add that nobody else who was joining in on the Sara dumping got kicked, so it's clear to me that that wasn't the reason for it.

I know some of you are probably gonna say I'm a bit biased or even that I'm white-knighting, but frankly, we all got tired of dealing with one obnoxious annoying troll. I can't blame people for being tired of another obnoxious annoying troll, either. (I might also note that Egg, after being banned, realized he needed to stop being a troll and took steps to do so. Paladin may be able to reform himself as well if he clearly sees his behavior is bad.)


To be honest the ones with paladin look way more reminiscent of old school factioneering we got hazeel paladin uni and half not that, that is a problem or anything just found it kind of ironic :)
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 14:10:22

Raxxess

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Cthris said:
It looks like Jex was trying to do the right thing. It also looks like there is a lot of bias against Paladin and as a result Paladin was unfairly kicked. Unfortunately, I don't think this bias is going to go away any time soon so this could continue to be a reoccuring issue. Due to this potentiallity I think it's a valid belief that in order to keep the peace we have to do something. Usually the way we handle this is to punish the power abuser but like I said I think Jex believed he was doing the right thing so I don't want to punish him for that.

Easiest solution that takes all these factors into consideration is to make paladin a general. Then no matter what level any biases against him is, he cannot be unfairly kicked and we don't have to punish Jex. Personally, I've seen Paladin be a moderator in the Zarosian FC and I thought he did a good job back then. We could add some stipulations however to him being a general. Perhaps it's only offered with the understanding that he isn't to kick someone, or maybe he's just not allowed to kick Saradominists due to his history of non personal (though some of you claim you think he personally has something against Saradomin and his player followers, personally I never got that feeling but w/e) trolling of an npc.

If you are worried about having too many generals he can have my general position. It's not like I actually do anything


Here is the thing though that's giving him some kind of special treatment which would be fine if he was completely innocent but in reality he isn't its not that people are bias against him it's that he made his own reputation. I'm a pretty chill guy and i don't let factions influence personal opinions but when you say people should die irl for being Saradominist thats genuinely disturbing lol
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 23:39:42

Raxxess

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Hazeel said:
The problem is...

1) Jexel was the only person getting pissed at Paladin. He was serving his own interests.

2) Saradomin was dropped when Paladin was kicked.

3) There are plenty of people--myself included--who are known for bashing a particular God all the time. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to rustle Armadylean jimmies when I bash Armadyl. I just really don't like him. =P

...For ROP, though, I will admit I'm trolling.

Anyway I heard from Dethal and the issue has, more or less, been sorted for the time being.


As we see from some of the bystander posters people like Morvek and Jaina people really do get annoyed by this because like I stated before he isnt jokingly faction bashing and its not an every now and then thing its literally all he does its not much different than what ancient did he just wants to start conflict

On a separate note I have seen you turn a lot more attention to Armadyl. And i honestly have a problem that you said "rustle armadylean jimmies" instead of "rustle armadylean feathers" like it almost hurts me that you didnt
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

07-Dec-2016 23:43:22 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2016 23:45:12 by Raxxess

Raxxess

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Half Centaur said:
Raxxess said:


As we see from some of the bystander posters people like Morvek and Jaina people really do get annoyed by this because like I stated before he isnt jokingly faction bashing and its not an every now and then thing its literally all he does its not much different than what ancient did he just wants to start conflict


We need to treat this as a spam issue then, moving forward.

Say, hey X, we're tired of hearing about the glory of camels now, either talk about something else, or we will kick you.


If we wanna treat it like spam, that's all well and good, but it needs to be clear what subject should be dropped before a kick happens- and if other players are discussing it- then it's not spam.


I mean we can't force people to talk about something else. Syrus only talks about camels but he doesn't try to start conflicts over it the guy just has an unhealthy obsession with camels and that is harmless.

If it's a topic that said individual has a history of causing a @#$%-storm over every time they bring up and people start to lose their patience then a general should kick them. Kicking isn't banning and they can come right back but its basically just throwing cold water on the situation to calm it down they come back and life is good and i think that is what happens here. I mean if this was Paladin's first offense I'd get it that it might have been a bit harsh but if it's someone who does this every other day and a general just finally calls them out on it gives them a slap on the wrist then everything is back to normal the next day I see no problem with that.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 00:16:28

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Half Centaur said:


Raxxess said:


On a separate note I have seen you turn a lot more attention to Armadyl. And i honestly have a problem that you said "rustle armadylean jimmies" instead of "rustle armadylean feathers" like it almost hurts me that you didnt


Does it....

Rustle your jimmies?


It really does lol like it was right there
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 00:17:42

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Raleirosen said:
A few more cents on this topic:

Ultimately, Paladin's antics are harmless and do not impact the chat in any way beyond damaging a few sensibilities. Likewise, trying to prune the FC by getting rid of people who don't contribute or are otherwise considered bad eggs is a useless (and potentially detrimental) effort.


He wasn't banned though he was just kicked. If he is performing these "antics" if you want to call it that, its fine and most people don't care but some people got annoyed with it Sky was one of them and kicked him because he was trying to start something
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 03:16:13

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Hazeel said:
To add onto this, if people stopped freaking out over faction bashing, Paladin would be completely and utterly harmless. Faction bashing only causes problems when people get too sensetive over their fictional characters. Personally, I think people should just toughen up overall, but because we deal with a diverse set of users, I'm willing to compromise my beliefs a bit on this...but there's a line. The line is fiction vs reality, and as long as it stays in fiction, it is completely unreasonable to make such an issue over it.


I kind of like allowing faction bashing as long as its fun fictional and nothing on the person themselves it can be fun stuff and if we banned it the lore fc would be really dull.

But people like you said when it draws beyond reality is a problem, and honestly when I think of someone that takes factions beyond fiction its always paladin.

My personal concerns here is that Sky is getting all the flak for something that really wasn't the abuse of power we are making it out to be, Paladin does this all the time and its nothing new and no one seems to be denying that so I just dont see him as the victim here. It just seems like old school factioneering and back when clans wanted to have the bragging rights of saying their faction had the most generals in the FC which was kind of slimy.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 04:35:52

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Raleirosen said:
Raxxess said:
My personal concerns here is that Sky is getting all the flak for something that really wasn't the abuse of power we are making it out to be, Paladin does this all the time and its nothing new and no one seems to be denying that so I just dont see him as the victim here.
To clarify, I don't think anyone is thinking of Paladin as a victim, or even giving Jexel all that much flak. It isn't big enough of an issue to get really invested over assigning blame.


Right no one is but as I understand it that was how Dethal saw it because Sky was given a warning and really nothing happened to Paladin.

And we have to be honest with ourselves here if this was reversed and it was an old school zarosian FC general that kicked some new Saradominist member the same people claiming pladin didnt do anything wouldn't really have cared. The major criticism about the lore fc is that it's really cliquey and the whole point of new generals was to make it more inclusive and get people who avoided it for that reason to join back and it worked so far, but stuff like this is just more of the same old @#$%.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 13:43:33

Raxxess

Raxxess

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As to those claiming people are flaming paladin since he has told before to die because I'm a Saradominist I reserve every right to call him crazy lol I mean at that both its by definition not even insult.

Now I don't really think we should measure people by worth because that is just lame this isn't a post apocalyptic pre-teen trilogy.


The solution to me is this if you want to troll bait and flame I say go for it be my guest we shouldnt have many rules because of situations like this because based on their faction people seem to play by a different set of rules. Just when a general finds it escalating to a point or the person was obviously only trying to start something then they should kick them and then have them join back later.

If you want to troll and flame just know that you're going to damage your rep and people aren't go to side with you when you think you're the victim
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 23:33:15

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Hazeel said:
Raxxess said:
As to those claiming people are flaming paladin since he has told before to die because I'm a Saradominist I reserve every right to call him crazy lol I mean at that both its by definition not even insult.


When did he tell you personally to die? Because I'm far more interested in this than the faction bashing.


A few times over the years I never really bothered much with it but really what Saradominist hasn't he said that too?

I mean in truth I have really noticed from this whole convo that even im guilty of giving him a free pass because well its just who he is. Which kind of makes sense why someone like Sky who is kind of a newer face probably doesn't have that same mindset and called him out on it. And it's kind of interesting now that I see that the lorums regulars for the past few years seem to backing paladin and newer faces (some older too tho) are against it. Maybe we all have just kind of ignored what he does because he has done it for so long lol
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

08-Dec-2016 23:55:51

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Tempra said:
Raxxess said:
Hazeel said:
Raxxess said:
As to those claiming people are flaming paladin since he has told before to die because I'm a Saradominist I reserve every right to call him crazy lol I mean at that both its by definition not even insult.


When did he tell you personally to die? Because I'm far more interested in this than the faction bashing.


A few times over the years I never really bothered much with it but really what Saradominist hasn't he said that too?

I mean in truth I have really noticed from this whole convo that even im guilty of giving him a free pass because well its just who he is. Which kind of makes sense why someone like Sky who is kind of a newer face probably doesn't have that same mindset and called him out on it. And it's kind of interesting now that I see that the lorums regulars for the past few years seem to backing paladin and newer faces (some older too tho) are against it. Maybe we all have just kind of ignored what he does because he has done it for so long lol
i have never seen him threaten anyone's life before, just shitposting that's it.


To be fair I dont remember him ever personally threatening me I do remember being told to die I think there is a difference there regardless I don't like him after it
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

09-Dec-2016 00:23:44 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2016 00:52:27 by Raxxess

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