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Tumeken and His 4 Facets

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Hguoh

Hguoh

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I quite like scenario 2. Why? Because it does wonders explaining why Amascut's madness would drive her to hate her other non-Icthlarin siblings so much. I mean, Icthlarin makes sense, he was daddy's favorite, but the others only really made sense insofar as hurting them inconvenienced or hurt Icthlarin.

But if we assume they are fragments of Tumeken that came about from his sacrifice, her actions suddenly make much more sense. As walking talking reminders of her father's death, it's understandable that she wouldn't be too fond of them (with her madness turning that into outright malice). Similarly, it explains why she'd go through so much effort to imprison them instead of killing them: she needs them to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

22-Mar-2017 23:26:31 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 23:28:06 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Amascut said:
I've been pretty widely spreading the idea that reforming Tumeken is possible and requires the four Aspects and the Kharid Ib, and I think Amascut is trying to stop this from happening due to her machinations against the Aspects.


Personally, I'd say she's actually acting to the opposite effect: she's trying to get her dad back.

She goes to great lengths to secure the Kharid-Ib when it had just been laying around in the Al'Kharid palace, ignored by the other desert gods since who knows when. She even states that in some ways she's been searching for it all her life.

She purposefully traps, imprisons, or frames her other siblings (with the exception of Icthlarin) which not only leaves said siblings in a position where she can come and reclaim them later (as opposed to just killing them), but also drives the desert people to dislike or distrust them (so if they would, for example, eventually disappear nobody would really mourn them).

Heck, us 'freeing' the other desert gods after she got the Ib could just be her letting us the gather up and bring to her (when we eventually confront her) the other bits of Tumeken so that she can sacrifice them to remake her Daddy.

I think, in her own twisted way, Amascut is trying to help Tumeken, but has little concern for collateral damage along the way or if her dad actually wants to be put back together.

I mean, even if we go with the idea that the other desert gods existed prior to Tumeken's explosion, Amascut could very well be trying to gather up the last dregs of her father's power so that she can transfer them back to the final remnant of his being (the Ib) to restore his physical form (she might even be nuts enough to send the power within herself and/or Icthlarin back to him as well).

23-Mar-2017 03:56:10 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 04:01:19 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Um, Wahi, isn't that pretty much what Ka says?

Something changed in Amascut after her trip to Freneskae, but it was Tumeken's sacrifice that drove her over the edge. In other words, she was still doing her job up to that point.

23-Mar-2017 15:05:37

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
She was still behaving to some extent until the Fourth Age.


I'm not so sure about that. Outside of Ka's dialogue, we aren't ever really given a time frame for when Amascut began slaughtering her followers (the first part of her descent into madness), when she began creating devourer beasts in the underworld instead of doing her job, or when she began working to descend the region into war.

Beyond that, we still don't know when Amascut actually dealt with Scabaras (only that she recently posed in his place), Het, or Crondis. And as Do No Evil tells, Amascut didn't deal with Apmeken until more recently because she didn't consider the much weaker Apmeken a threat to her plans until a pharoah that followed Apmeken tried to bring about a peace treaty.

23-Mar-2017 18:21:57 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 18:22:44 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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AesirWarrior said:
Hguoh said:
Wahisietel said:
She was still behaving to some extent until the Fourth Age.


I'm not so sure about that. Outside of Ka's dialogue, we aren't ever really given a time frame for when Amascut began slaughtering her followers (the first part of her descent into madness), when she began creating devourer beasts in the underworld instead of doing her job, or when she began working to descend the region into war.




Okay, we could have an overlong theological debate now, but to get to my point, recently - well, in the last age or so - The Devourer has taken to destroying humans.

- The Sphinx


1. That's not exactly the most specific time frame (lending a time period from year 168 of the 5th age all the way back to the 2nd age (it'd only been 3 ages after all).

2. The Sphinx also has this dialogue:

Sphinx: I am an agent of neither good nor evil. I am unconcerned with the plight of mankind and their petty wars and beliefs.

and

Sphinx: It's lucky that he (Tumeken) prefers to spend his time with Elidinis rather than smiting you. (When Tumeken hasn't been active since the 2nd age, and Elidinis has presumably been gone since the 3rd).

Current events aren't her speciality.

23-Mar-2017 22:45:22

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
Amascut and the 4 Facets have to have been on relatively friendly terms at the end of the Fourth Age - otherwise Guthix would have likely banished her (and probably Icthlarin too by extension, since there'd be nobody to balance him). From Neite we know that for a time she had followers that actually tolerated and agreed with her "destruction", so presumably there was a period of time where she was advocating for destruction but hadn't turned on her followers and the demigods yet.


From Ka:

Ka: The priestesses of Amascut's clergy, such as Neite and I, returned to Gielinor after being reincarnated. We were not seeking revenge, but Amascut was on a destructive rampage. We knew she had to be stopped. We went to the ruins of our most sacred temple. There amongst the rubble we unearthed the altar, and poured all of our combined power into a ritual. Amascut's screams of anger and pain could be heard across the barren Kharid, as we afflicted her with the curse she still bears today. Our aim was to bind her to the Kharidian desert and prevent anyone from making the mistake of following her again. That way we would limit the amount of havoc she could wreak.

And Neite openly admits that there was a time during which Amascut was destroying people, and her clergy tolerated it. It wasn't until Amascut turned her efforts to destroy on her own followers and temples that her followers did anything.

Methinks Guthix's unwillingness to banish the lesser members of the pantheon is more likely to do with Amascut being cursed to the Desert (such that he couldn't banish her) than them being on good terms (he even was going to banish Seren, and they were on the best of terms).

23-Mar-2017 22:51:43 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 22:53:41 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Note: Ka recounts the time during which Amascut had gone to Freneskae as well as her return. This places the time period during which her followers tolerated Amascut's destruction back in the 2nd age or early 3rd age.

23-Mar-2017 23:11:40

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
Like I said, disregard that Hallowe'en event, it contradicts so much stuff that's actually permanent content that it's not worth reconciling. Pretty much everything Ka says is contradicted by other stuff.


Her description of what was happening in and at the event was accurate.

She claims that the Zarosian-Menaphite war happened near the end of the 2nd age and that the war took its toll on the people of the land. Now, that's more than a bit later than I would've placed the time frame of the war (I would have thought it'd have happened toward the middle of the age), but it doesn't outright conflict with any lore I am aware of.

She claims that Icthlarin and Amascut left the world for a period of time and returned with the Mahjarrat who turned the tide of the war for a time. This is just a retelling of preexisting lore.

She claims that the Mahjarrat betrayed them. This resulted in the war worsening for them once again, driving Tumeken to sacrifice himself and turn the land into desert. Again, just a reltelling of existing lore.

She claims that Amascut soon after destroyed 'everything she once stood for.' As far as I am aware, the only preexisting lore this directly contradicts is the dialogue from the sphinx who was already contradicted by Tumeken having sacrificed himself.

She claims that Icthlarin offered them rebirth in the form of cats. I can't recall any lore this contradicts.

She claims that Amascut was in charge of reincarnation, but Icthlarin took over. The only lore this would seem to contradict is Senliten's dialogue on reincarnation. However, one can easily attribute the discrepancy as a difference between belief and reality, and the fact that Icthlarin was already in charge of rebirth back then tells you Amascut had already begun shirking her duties.

24-Mar-2017 10:04:45

Hguoh

Hguoh

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She says that reincarnation has become less common since Icthlarin took over the job, and I know of no lore that contradicts that.

She says that Amascut was in charge of 'destroying the darkest, most evil of souls,' and that few mortals knew of that. Again, I know of no lore that contradicts this.

She says that Amascut began her descent into madness after Tumeken's sacrifice. This is consistent with Senliten's dialogue about Icthlarin being in charge of reincarnation.

She claims that the curse laid on Amascut occurred after the members of Amascut's clergy had reincarnated. This seems to be contradicted by Neite's dialogue claiming that Amascut cursed them to forever walk Runescape in her form. However, this could just as easily refer to Amascut preventing them from assuming any other form than a cat, which would fit with Ka's description of events.

Then she describes what the curse does. The only difference between her and Neite's dialogues on this point is that Neite assumes the curse is still working (Amascut's deeds being remembered while Amascut herself remains forgotten and needing to use mind control to possess followers) while Ka assumes the curse has weakened since they cast it (allowing Amascut to 'coerce' mortals into her service).

24-Mar-2017 10:24:04

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Maiden China said:
Wahisietel said:
Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age.
where did you find that?

from what I understood, Guthix created the shield and then went after the gods one by one to put them on the other side of it... and the ones that stayed on this side were pretty much fine


Also this. V's description of how the Edicts work (which Guthix's confrontation of Bandos seems to support) describes it as essentially being Guthix's personal ban list for Gods on Gielinor. This would mean that as long as Guthix didn't explicitly cast the minor desert gods out, they'd have no issue with the Edicts unless they personally wanted to honor Guthix's intentions (which would explain why someone like Icthlarin would stay withdrawn from humans, while Amascut wouldn't particularly care).

24-Mar-2017 10:28:21

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
Nobody ever mentions Tumeken sacrificing himself outside of that Hallowe'en event, Fate of the Gods, and Kharshai's memory.


And? My point is that the sphinx isn't the most reliable source of information on this matter.

Beyond that, the sphinx's line is specifically that Amascut started destroying people in the last age or so. As that line is delivered in the 5th age, that would either refer to the last age (4th) or 'so' (the 3rd age). With the Zarosian-Menaphite war apparently having taken place very near to the end of the 2nd age, the 3rd age lines up perfectly with Amascut going nutty.

Wahisietel said:
Contradicted by Neite and the only example we actually have of reincarnation (Bob) working completely differently.


Neite's dialogue doesn't specify that Amascut turned them into cats, just that she cursed them to forever walk the world in her form, which could just as easily be a curse to prevent them from ever using magic to become human again. As for Bob, we really don't know how his reincarnation worked yet, just that he appears to have planned for it, so it's entirely possible that Icthlarin dealt with his reincarnation as well.

Wahisietel said:
This is the biggest issue - her version of events and Neite's version cannot be reconciled, and I'm inclined to consider Neite are more reliable source.


I'd say they can. Neite never specifies that they were human when they cursed Amascut. It is distinctly implied and I have no doubt that that is what was intended when it was written, but Jagex has the wiggle room to have them have performed the ritual after their reincarnation. And, as I said just above here, there's also a bit of wiggle room for what Amascut's curse on them actually did.

24-Mar-2017 20:50:12

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
The actual event itself ignores this lore completely by having Amascut as Lady Keli again.


Not exactly. Neite specifically mentions that any corporeal body she'd take would soon cast her out (Sumona is actually the more significant lore issue with this). Keeping in mind that the event occurred in the Under World and Amascut never physically interacted with anything, she didn't really need a physical form. Considering Amascut hates cats (and so probably isn't too fond of her own base form) and we foiled her plans while she was in the guise of Sumona/Jesmona, I think it makes perfect sense that she'd elect to utilize Lady Keli's visage (her most recent success) when presenting an incorporeal form.

Wahisietel said:
This is explained in the post-quest dialogue for Dealing with Scabaras with the Sophanem High Priest, go and check it out. It was also confirmed with Jmod statements a while back.


And we can't just classify that under the whole, 'mortals misunderstanding the exact nature of the Edicts' schtick as was the case in the Myreque Questline? I mean, he also admits earlier in the same train of thought that Icthlarin doesn't actually explain things to him. Heck, he later claims that Guthix's rules affect Amascut differently since she became the Devourer, which doesn't make sense based on how the Edicts actually worked.

24-Mar-2017 20:50:23

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
My point is that lore from before Tumeken's sacrifice was a thing is obviously not going to reference it.The phrase "within the last age or so" would include the current age (5th), meaning it happened in the 5th or 4th.


Now follow that conclusion through. If lore is written prior to a big decision about what it references is made, it's not likely to be all that accurate. Beyond that, I disagree with your interpretation that the sphinx must only be referring to the 5th or 4th ages (instead of referring all the way back to the 3rd) because new information contradicts that conclusion (and I'd prefer the sphinx not being outright incorrect on the subject).

Wahisietel said:
We know that Robert was reincarnated 2139 years after the fact, and that Bob has a completely different memories and personality to Robert, which is not the case with Neite/Ka.


How does when Robert reincarnated have anything to do with anything? As Ka explained, Icthlarin fully taking over reincarnation duties has made reincarnation more rare, not impossible. And as for his memories being different, again, we don't know the process that led up to him reincarnating. Personally, I'd think that the clergy of Amascut retaining their memories is more the exception than the rule due to Icthlarin needing them to reign in his sister.

27-Mar-2017 20:14:35

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
Neite's story says that she started destroying her own followers, and that HER LAST REMAINING FOLLOWERS cursed her. Amascut killing her followers and inexplicably not devouring the souls of a few of them so they get reincarnated makes no sense.


Amascut may be able to devour souls, but she's not the one able to sever them from their physical bodies. She'd only have from the time Death or his helpers severed the souls from their bodies to the time they were delivered to Icthlarin to intercept them and devour their souls. Is it truly so hard to believe that she wouldn't be able to intercept them all and that the 'Last Remaining Followers Neite refers to are the souls left undevoured?

Wahisietel said:
In-universe, no time has passed since Smoking Kills, so it still makes sense for her to take that form. There's nothing to indicate that Amascut is capable of taking any sort of non-physical form, or that the one in the event was, since all other living stuff in the underworld is mortal. Especially considering it's implied that her forms are a result of possession, and not truly her own.


That was true prior to the 6th age. Now, time is officially passing in parallel with the real world. So Amascut has been in the Sumona form for a few years now. And the very fact that Amascut can 'adopt a corporeal body' that will cast her out tells you that she must have some incorporeal form (otherwise, she'd just cease existing).

27-Mar-2017 20:15:02

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said:
Yeah, but Mod Rowley has stated that Amascut and Icthlarin WERE affected by the edicts (just not to the same extent as the other gods), so we should probably assume the High Priest's dialogue is based in some truth.


As much as I love Jmod statements, the in game information is much more pertinent. And the current explanation of how the Edicts work (Guthix's personal Ban List) doesn't really mesh with Amascut and Icthlarin being affected differently outside of just not being included in it (hence why Zaros was able to affect Gielinor upon the completion of the communion portal (he wasn't included in the Edicts as he and Guthix were never active at the same time) and why Brassica was able to manifest on Gielinor when the Edicts were up, (Guthix didn't see him as a threat)).

Wahisietel said:
At any rate, we're getting super off-topic, and my main point was that there was no single event that led to Amascut suddenly becoming mentally unstable, and that it happened over time as a result of a combination of factors.


Well no duh. But to say that certain events didn't play a significant role in her destabilization would be just as fallacious. And there are 3 particular events (seeing the Mahjarrats' Ritual while on Frenekae, going up the volcano to where Mah was, and Tumeken's self-detonation) that have been pointed out as doing just that.

27-Mar-2017 20:15:21

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