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Tumeken and His 4 Facets

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Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Senliten confirms that all four of the Tumeken facet demigods were around before Tumeken sacrificed himself.

Amascut's madness was probably a combination of neglect from Tumeken, encountering Mah, Tumeken's "death", and Elidinis's departure at the end of the Third Age.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

23-Mar-2017 01:40:17

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Elf of Seren said:
In Sliske's book in Book of the God's it details the Khardian God's leading the Stern Judges. Idk if it includes the aspects, but I always assumed that it did. Also, I believe Senliten said something about them existing beforehand.

Edit: Nvmd lol. Wahi beat me there.

Wahisietel said:

Amascut's madness was probably a combination of neglect from Tumeken, encountering Mah, Tumeken's "death", and Elidinis's departure at the end of the Third Age.


Ka from Halloween 2015 admits that coming back from Freneskae changed her, and that Tumeken's suicide is what set her off.


Halloween 2015 should be disregarded IMO, since it contradicts a ton of other stuff. Amascut seems to have functioned to some degree in the Third Age, it was only in the Fourth Age that she began turning on her followers and went after Apmeken.

Anyway, main point is that we DO have explicit confirmation that the facets existed pre-explosion, so there's no point speculating about that.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

23-Mar-2017 13:04:47

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Hguoh said:
Um, Wahi, isn't that pretty much what Ka says?

Something changed in Amascut after her trip to Freneskae, but it was Tumeken's sacrifice that drove her over the edge. In other words, she was still doing her job up to that point.


Tumeken's sacrifice was Second Age.

She was still behaving to some extent until the Fourth Age.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

23-Mar-2017 16:49:45

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Amascut and the 4 Facets have to have been on relatively friendly terms at the end of the Fourth Age - otherwise Guthix would have likely banished her (and probably Icthlarin too by extension, since there'd be nobody to balance him). From Neite we know that for a time she had followers that actually tolerated and agreed with her "destruction", so presumably there was a period of time where she was advocating for destruction but hadn't turned on her followers and the demigods yet.

There's nothing to indicate that Amascut EVER dealt with Scabaras - by his very nature, he keeps to himself and keeps interaction to a minimum. We DO see him interacting indirectly in an attempt to take the Kharid-Ib during Diamond in the Rough (which leads into the events of Dealing with Scabaras), so he doesn't seem to be incapacitated.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

23-Mar-2017 20:04:12

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Like I said, disregard that Hallowe'en event, it contradicts so much stuff that's actually permanent content that it's not worth reconciling. Pretty much everything Ka says is contradicted by other stuff.

From what is currently in the game, it is indicated that Amascut only really started her plans relatively recently.

Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 00:26:44 - Last edited on 24-Mar-2017 00:31:21 by Wahisietel

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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I'll address what I can.


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She claims that Amascut soon after destroyed 'everything she once stood for.' As far as I am aware, the only preexisting lore this directly contradicts is the dialogue from the sphinx who was already contradicted by Tumeken having sacrificed himself.


Nobody ever mentions Tumeken sacrificing himself outside of that Hallowe'en event, Fate of the Gods, and Kharshai's memory.

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She claims that Icthlarin offered them rebirth in the form of cats. I can't recall any lore this contradicts.


Contradicted by Neite and the only example we actually have of reincarnation (Bob) working completely differently.

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She claims that the curse laid on Amascut occurred after the members of Amascut's clergy had reincarnated. This seems to be contradicted by Neite's dialogue claiming that Amascut cursed them to forever walk Runescape in her form. However, this could just as easily refer to Amascut preventing them from assuming any other form than a cat, which would fit with Ka's description of events.


This is the biggest issue - her version of events and Neite's version cannot be reconciled, and I'm inclined to consider Neite are more reliable source.

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Then she describes what the curse does. The only difference between her and Neite's dialogues on this point is that Neite assumes the curse is still working (Amascut's deeds being remembered while Amascut herself remains forgotten and needing to use mind control to possess followers) while Ka assumes the curse has weakened since they cast it (allowing Amascut to 'coerce' mortals into her service).


The actual event itself ignores this lore completely by having Amascut as Lady Keli again.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 13:13:32

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Hguoh said:
Maiden China said:
Wahisietel said:
Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age.
where did you find that?

from what I understood, Guthix created the shield and then went after the gods one by one to put them on the other side of it... and the ones that stayed on this side were pretty much fine


Also this. V's description of how the Edicts work (which Guthix's confrontation of Bandos seems to support) describes it as essentially being Guthix's personal ban list for Gods on Gielinor. This would mean that as long as Guthix didn't explicitly cast the minor desert gods out, they'd have no issue with the Edicts unless they personally wanted to honor Guthix's intentions (which would explain why someone like Icthlarin would stay withdrawn from humans, while Amascut wouldn't particularly care).


This is explained in the post-quest dialogue for Dealing with Scabaras with the Sophanem High Priest, go and check it out. It was also confirmed with Jmod statements a while back.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 13:14:45

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Original message details are unavailable.

And? My point is that the sphinx isn't the most reliable source of information on this matter.

Beyond that, the sphinx's line is specifically that Amascut started destroying people in the last age or so. As that line is delivered in the 5th age, that would either refer to the last age (4th) or 'so' (the 3rd age). With the Zarosian-Menaphite war apparently having taken place very near to the end of the 2nd age, the 3rd age lines up perfectly with Amascut going nutty.


My point is that lore from before Tumeken's sacrifice was a thing is obviously not going to reference it.The phrase "within the last age or so" would include the current age (5th), meaning it happened in the 5th or 4th.

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Neite's dialogue doesn't specify that Amascut turned them into cats, just that she cursed them to forever walk the world in her form, which could just as easily be a curse to prevent them from ever using magic to become human again. As for Bob, we really don't know how his reincarnation worked yet, just that he appears to have planned for it, so it's entirely possible that Icthlarin dealt with his reincarnation as well.


We know that Robert was reincarnated 2139 years after the fact, and that Bob has a completely different memories and personality to Robert, which is not the case with Neite/Ka.

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I'd say they can. Neite never specifies that they were human when they cursed Amascut. It is distinctly implied and I have no doubt that that is what was intended when it was written, but Jagex has the wiggle room to have them have performed the ritual after their reincarnation. And, as I said just above here, there's also a bit of wiggle room for what Amascut's curse on them actually did.


Neite's story says that she started destroying her own followers, and that HER LAST REMAINING FOLLOWERS cursed her. Amascut killing her followers and inexplicably not devouring the souls of a few of them so they get reincarnated makes no sense.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 02:26:59 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 02:28:44 by Wahisietel

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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Original message details are unavailable.
Not exactly. Neite specifically mentions that any corporeal body she'd take would soon cast her out (Sumona is actually the more significant lore issue with this). Keeping in mind that the event occurred in the Under World and Amascut never physically interacted with anything, she didn't really need a physical form. Considering Amascut hates cats (and so probably isn't too fond of her own base form) and we foiled her plans while she was in the guise of Sumona/Jesmona, I think it makes perfect sense that she'd elect to utilize Lady Keli's visage (her most recent success) when presenting an incorporeal form.


In-universe, no time has passed since Smoking Kills, so it still makes sense for her to take that form. There's nothing to indicate that Amascut is capable of taking any sort of non-physical form, or that the one in the event was, since all other living stuff in the underworld is mortal. Especially considering it's implied that her forms are a result of possession, and not truly her own.

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And we can't just classify that under the whole, 'mortals misunderstanding the exact nature of the Edicts' schtick as was the case in the Myreque Questline? I mean, he also admits earlier in the same train of thought that Icthlarin doesn't actually explain things to him. Heck, he later claims that Guthix's rules affect Amascut differently since she became the Devourer, which doesn't make sense based on how the Edicts actually worked.


Yeah, but Mod Rowley has stated that Amascut and Icthlarin WERE affected by the edicts (just not to the same extent as the other gods), so we should probably assume the High Priest's dialogue is based in some truth.

At any rate, we're getting super off-topic, and my main point was that there was no single event that led to Amascut suddenly becoming mentally unstable, and that it happened over time as a result of a combination of factors.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 02:29:39 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 02:35:06 by Wahisietel

Wahisietel

Wahisietel

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HalloweenFox said:

However, all this talk of inconsistencies among NPCs' accounts of the history of the desert gods and the fact that Senliten's word would really be the only confirmation we have so far that they existed beforehand is keeping me from dismissing Situation 2 altogether.


We know that she died when the Mahjarrat were still serving Icthlarin (so pre-Tumeken KAPOW), and she mentions the facets multiple times, although mainly Scabaras and Apmeken. Her noticing that Apmeken and the desert monkeys are gone is what sets the events of Do No Evil into motion. She even has statues of the facets in her tomb.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 13:01:32

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