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Why Saradomin split his armies

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Maniaces
Oct Member 2019

Maniaces

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Let's call to mind images early in the God Wars: Saradomin'soldiers marching on vast, icy mountaneous terrain, very far away from home. Few in Nex’s army understand what really is going on: a provocation? Unsactioned hostilities spontaneously ignited? The commanders of Saradomin’s army, by contrast, are already in the know. It is no provocation, no conflict, nor even a Saradominist-Zarosian war, but rather the start of Gielinor’s God Wars, without even Zamorak north. Hallowvale was not exactly next door, it could thus be exposed to others gods' potential critical attacks. What did Saradomin need northern mobilization for?

( Side note: eventually, Hallowvale’s fortress would be packed to bursting with Icyene troops, but not enough for Drakan to reach Ascertes and catch him off-guard. Before Sradomin's expedition towards the Ritual Site far out North, I believe conditions for defending Hallowvale were better: they had not only woods, swamps, and rivers, but also many more battle-hardened troops and tons of time to concentrate on defensive efforts. The Icyene home base could have raised an even more formidable barrier on its frontier, closing gaps, as fortunately, the breach was not wide. We saw this later near the River Salve in the River of Blood quest, when Vanescula massed her vampyre and werewolves before us. In Hallowvale, Saradomin's armies would have more time and resources to prepare. )

Soon, the ink had dried on an alliance between both the blue and red gods to eat up neutral Zarosian territory. Instead of making his fortress impassable, Saradomin’s armies rush North. New bases and even temples are being built elsewhere, and Saradomin’s foreign network of armies expand itself far away from home, enough to paralyze all its rear-area lines; his troops' output gets eventually slashed.

What was Saradomin attending to, other than wrecking his own defenses? What should his armies have done, faced with a breach near Hallowvale and some time to spare? Discuss...
The power of
Guthix
compels you.

28-Feb-2018 20:56:42

A Mad Hatter
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2005

A Mad Hatter

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My best guess? He was probably hoping to get to the Catalyst before anyone else could. Or he figured out about a mahjarrat ritual site at the time and wanted to control or destroy it in order to deny them a power boost or buy some time.

At least that's the sort of thing I'd do in his position, minus the whole leaving a gap in defenses thing (assuming it even happened that way to begin with.)
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28-Feb-2018 21:46:20

Sodden Hound
Jan Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sodden Hound

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^^ There are some strategic decisions that could be made up there, and the icyene are incredibly powerful so he was probably confident about leaving them to defend Hallowvale - at the time, Saradominists didn't realize the vampyres were fully intelligent and capable of causing huge problems. Thought they were beasts and all that. Mods pls notice me

28-Feb-2018 22:43:24

Hguoh
Mar Member 2014

Hguoh

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Zamorak and Saradomin worked together in the early days of the God Wars to eradicate the Zarosian remnants. The battle over the Ritual Site likely occurred during this period. The expectation of this alliance being that Saradomin take control of the Zarosian territories immediately nearby his own territories (or at least take home some of the Zarosian innovations), while Zamorak would take the territories further away.

For all appearances, this alliance lasted until at least when the armies took Senntisten, which, for all appearances occurred quite a while after Hallowvale was taken by Drakan. Around this time, the alliance broke down. Perhaps Zamorak learned Saradomin had the Catalyst, wanted it back, and struck first. Perhaps Saradomin wasn't comfortable having another god's stronghold so close to his own and he struck first.

Who knows? But the alliance did break down, and the two gods set upon each other. Saradomin gathered allies amongst the other gods to face Zamorak with him. Eventually, Zamorak is driven back, with Saradomin claiming much of the territory taken from Zamorak, constructing/claiming fortresses in said territory. When Zamorak was finally cornered, he utilized the Catalyst in an unstable state and razed the continent of Forinthry. Guthix woke up, and the god wars were put to an end.

So yeah, pretty sure Saradomin was spread thin due to his part in the alliance with Zamorak, who had yet to become an enemy/threat to Saradomin's territories. Given how the alliance seems to have persisted for quite a while after the loss of Hallowvale, I wouldn't be surprised if Zamorak managed to paint Drakan as a rogue agent with a following acting against orders (this narrative changing to blaming Zamorak once the alliance broke down).

Heck, maybe Hallowvale's fall was an agreed upon deal between Zamorak and Saradomin (given the relative ease with which it was taken) so Saradomin could take all the Zarosian tech he wanted.

01-Mar-2018 00:51:21 - Last edited on 01-Mar-2018 01:00:56 by Hguoh

Maniaces
Oct Member 2019

Maniaces

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@ A Mad Hatter

Could you tell me more about the catalyst’s whereabouts at the time Saradomin's army arrived at the Ritual Plateau? (I always thought the god of order took it when Zamorak left.)

Do you believe it was necessary to slam an axe into an outnumbered Nex’s back, just when it was preparing for a battle against Zamorak's Mahjarrat, without looking after the Icyene?
If Saradomin tried to stave off the start of a war between some rival Mahjarrat, that's like saying he tried to light a fire next door, so that his own house would burn later than the neighbor’s.

My question is: if Zamorak, with all his expertise and inside information of the other Zarosian generals, their strategies, tactics, behavior, etc. did not come to protect to his precious Mahjarrat, is it possible he was busy still collecting his Avernic demons on Infernus?

With the schism already there, shouldn't Saradomin rather apply "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" rule and let Zamorakian and Zarosian mahjarrat battle it out with Nex? While remaining tightly locked down in Hallowvale, strictly speaking, he could have maintained the status quo, as he perfectly fended himself off against Zarosian hordes in Second Age. Sacrificing those Saradominist soldiers for the Ritual Plateau venture seemed quite risky, as he only narrowly succeeded in finally locking Nex down, and again this he did all alone.

So, Saradomin, content to have driven a corridor through the partition, then turned to his southern border disputes with the remaining Zarosians. Though even as the blue-faced god attacked the remote Zarosians first, as a sign of good will perhaps, Zamorak would unleash his vampyre on Hallowvale anyway: clever alliance, was it not?

In the end, who had Saradomin really bought time off? And who, then, was supposed to be his ally in knocking the other out? Lastly, do you believe Saradomin already acted with Zamorak's consent, as the latter was still too fragile, or was it really the old man's idea?
The power of
Guthix
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01-Mar-2018 14:54:36

Maniaces
Oct Member 2019

Maniaces

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@ Marine Doge

Interesting point about the strategic value of tearing the Zarosians apart, who were at that point opposed to Zamorak, to then drown the remainder in blood in its strongholds. So, by shifting our borders far out north-westwards, we supposedly made ourselves more secure. Strange explanation. Saradomin’s armies, yes, were pushed out many miles towards the outer northwestern of the plane, getting at Nex’s forces first with the only intent of securing the ritual plateau: for whom? That did not make Hallowvale more, but instead less secure.

Even if an alliance was supposedly made, instead of raising his defenses near Hallowvale at a critical moment (being surrounded by Senntisten), Saradomin’s troops (whose numbers, I believe, some underestimate) lunged deep into enemy territory, which was still neutral between red (not there) and blue gods. Think of how many human, and potentially Icyene, soldiers were needed to push Nex back (with an entire elite Zarosian platoon at her side -we know she was picky in selecting warriors).

Map of the early God Wars, the X's mark fortresses or strongholds of the factions by color:


Without Zamorak present there, geographically speaking, I call it strategic suicide: just look at the distance between Nex’s army at the ritual plateau and Hallowvale. The bigger menace to Saradomin was clearly the Zarosian capital surrounded by its fortresses in Forinthry, never mind they never succeeded to besiege Hallowvale, and even less sought to focus on its eastern part while the Mahjarrat while struggling for domination over the Ritual site.

If the vampye race was really so clever in single-handedly outmaneuvering the Icyene, how could they, under Zaros’s rule, miss Hallowvale when Zarosian armies were the best in the world? Unless, Saradomin’s Second Age-defence was much better than we were told at the time of Drakan’s eventual attack, the Zarosians were forced to call off their attacks.
The power of
Guthix
compels you.

01-Mar-2018 15:23:52

Maniaces
Oct Member 2019

Maniaces

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@ Hguoh

Why would Saradomin agree to cut a rather narrow corridor through the farthest Zarosian army with no Saradominist interest? There were no hidden technologies there, right? These are questions I’ve been straining to dream up answers for- without success. The even more vexing question about why Saradomin leveled the whole wall while already possessing the Catalyst, though, no one prefers to even raise.

At the point of the appearance of Saradominist forces deep beyond enemy lines meant they had moved (or teleported) way up, far from the actual borders between Hallowvale and Senntisten. Mind you, the frontier had not yet run through conquered territory in the early Third Age, as you say yourself the Zarosian capital didn't fall until much later.

Here, you really no longer have any way of saying Zamorak the cannibal, as before he was cutting corridors to the east, sappy Saradomin made it easy for him. Even if Saradomin was cutting north-western bound corridors, you say with Zamorak’s consent, he ironically did without the latter’s help, who supposedly had the Mahjarrat's best interests at heart.

Senntisten could not care less whether Zamorak went east or not. Saradomin’s Icyene followers, by contrast, very much did care. Was this possibly some kind of scheme pulled by Wahisietel? If Zamorak headed east, the Icyene would be the first victims. Zarosians, before Saradomin struck Nex , were thus, indirectly, his natural allies. He could have stayed neutral, but instead lunged a sword into the back of those wishing to exhaust themselves in battle against Zamorakians. That sort of alliance, however, Saradomin unfortunately was not after.

Explanations as to why Saradomin did what he did, lorehounds have churned out by the bushel. Many of those explanations are an after the fact attempt, however, and totally ignore the position Saradomin took, though at least you guys set out your stance more clearly and understandably than Saradomin stated in his own rhetoric.
The power of
Guthix
compels you.

01-Mar-2018 16:18:55 - Last edited on 01-Mar-2018 17:36:22 by Maniaces

Hguoh
Mar Member 2014

Hguoh

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Maniaces said:
Why would Saradomin agree to cut a rather narrow corridor through the farthest Zarosian army with no Saradominist interest? There were no hidden technologies there, right? These are questions I’ve been straining to dream up answers for- without success. The even more vexing question about why Saradomin leveled the whole wall while already possessing the Catalyst, though, no one prefers to even raise.


Territories and tech along the way.

The potential to take out one of the greatest remaining military forces of the Zarosian Empire. The same empire that just attacked non-militarized Saradominists just before Zamorak's coup went down.

Aiding his ally Zamorak gain footholds at a time when Zamorak had only recently returned and had minimal followers and was busy fighting other gods trying to take the Empire's territory for their own.

Also, leveling the wall? Not sure I know what you're talking about.

Maniaces said:
At the point of the appearance of Saradominist forces deep beyond enemy lines meant they had moved (or teleported) way up, far from the actual borders between Hallowvale and Senntisten. Mind you, the frontier had not yet run through conquered territory in the early Third Age, as you say yourself the Zarosian capital didn't fall until much later.


The Zarosian capital was one of the last, if not the last, major bastion of Zarosianism to fall in the 3rd age. Given the apparent division of the Empire's territories by this point (Zamorak at least controlled most of Forinthry, while Saradomin seems to have taken parts of Southern Forinthry), the frontier first moved past Senntisten (largely ignoring/corralling it) swept across the less defended country side, took out most of the Zarosian fortresses, and then turned back to Senntisten.

And, again, Nex was a valuable piece to remove from the war as quickly as possible.

01-Mar-2018 19:36:57

Hguoh
Mar Member 2014

Hguoh

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Maniaces said:
Here, you really no longer have any way of saying Zamorak the cannibal, as before he was cutting corridors to the east, sappy Saradomin made it easy for him. Even if Saradomin was cutting north-western bound corridors, you say with Zamorak’s consent, he ironically did without the latter’s help, who supposedly had the Mahjarrat's best interests at heart.


It's a matter of priorities really. We know several gods were invading and conquering the territories of the Zarosian Empire. We also know that Zamorak didn't have much territory to speak of when he returned to Gielinor due to the conquest of said gods. Because of this, we can expect Zamorak's forces at this time to have largely been tied up in regaining the empire's territory and holding it.

Presumably, Zamorak's tied up dealing with other gods seeking to conquer, and finds out that the Zarosians are trying to take and hold the Ritual Site with Nex and her army. Normally, he'd be in quite a pickle (due to how that endangers his most powerful followers), but he conveniently has another god with a notable vendetta against the Zarosians and trades the location of one of the most powerful and dangerous Zarosian generals and her army, forges an alliance, and keeps the Mahjarrat safe.

Not confirmed by any means, but it seems to be a plausible explanation of the events that occurred.

01-Mar-2018 19:50:54 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2018 04:08:28 by Hguoh

Hguoh
Mar Member 2014

Hguoh

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Maniaces said:
Senntisten could not care less whether Zamorak went east or not. Saradomin’s Icyene followers, by contrast, very much did care. Was this possibly some kind of scheme pulled by Wahisietel? If Zamorak headed east, the Icyene would be the first victims. Zarosians, before Saradomin struck Nex , were thus, indirectly, his natural allies. He could have stayed neutral, but instead lunged a sword into the back of those wishing to exhaust themselves in battle against Zamorakians. That sort of alliance, however, Saradomin unfortunately was not after.


You seem to be misunderstanding events. At the beginning of the God Wars, Zamorak had next to no territory, most of it having been taken by the forces of other gods prior to his return to Gielinor. Upon his return, he set about reclaiming the territories of the Zarosian Empire, which largely consisted of Forinthry, far to the north of Hallowvale and away from Saradominist territories. This demand on his forces makes it very easy to pass Drakan off as or for Drakan to have actually been a rogue agent given how far away he operated from the Zamorakian frontlines.

Saradomin, on the other hand, had spent much of the 2nd age losing territory to the Zarosian Empire's expansion, and had been attacked unprovoked by Zarosian forces at the age's end (though that was a ploy by the Zamorakian rebels to get the Zarosian guard out of Senntisten during the coup). To him, Zamorak was the enemy of his enemy. And the enemy of my enemy is somebody I can work with to deal with my enemy. And given how Zamorak was tied up reclaiming the empire, his forces should have posed little threat to Saradomin's territories anyway.

01-Mar-2018 20:03:34 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2018 04:09:13 by Hguoh

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