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LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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3-12-2018 update: the battle is lost. Feel free to keep using this thread to discuss the consequences of what's happened, though. Transcripts, images and examine texts of MA things have been preserved on the wiki (User:Fswe1/Laboratory4 for examines, the rest is in the mainspace) for posterity.

~~~

Hello, everyone.


As you may have heard at RuneFest or read in the accompanying news post, there are apparently concrete plans to 'remove Mobilising Armies' (the details are not provided). For those who don't know, Mobilising Armies (henceforth MA) is a strategic multiplayer minigame developed by Mods Maz and Tim, released in 2009 after several delays. The gameplay involves controlling units in two- or four-player scenarios in order to complete a main objective (differs per scenario) or defeat your opponents in combat.

As it stands, however, the minigame is relatively unpopular and not played very much (for various reasons), which I suspect to be a ground for its removal. Because so far I have not actually heard any legitimate arguments in favour of removal Ś in this thread I shall aim to convince you of the converse; that it has to remain.
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Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:08:03 - Last edited on 03-Dec-2018 15:28:29 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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First and foremost, I am of the opinion that removal of such major (non-seasonal) content without adding a replacement is ipso facto very bad practice. Usually, Jagex have adhered to this principle: no quest has ever been removed, for example, without being replaced by a rework (e.g. Doric's Quest, Prince Ali Rescue) or demoted to miniquest (Sheep Shearer, Witch's Quest). Similarly, several minigames have been replaced (Rogues' Den by Flash Powder Factory, Bounty Hunter by the Crucible and then by Deathmatch) and not removed.

The exception to this is the Rat Pits, and their removal was done in an awful way. Because they have, in fact, not been removed, with the exception of the Ardougne one. The pits are still there, but have been made inaccessible. A rather lazy and disrespectful way of treating content if you ask me, since apart from the actual minigames the Rat Pits offered interesting areas and loads of amusing dialogue. The reason for their removal (such as it is) was apparently that their code was causing bugs, which admittedly is a fair point. But that was hardly a reason to get rid of the locations altogether and besides, I cannot help but wonder whether those bugs were a consequence of EoC's not working with the Pits (due to broken damage/health values, no rat could ever be killed by cats)... But anyway, while the way the Rat Pits were handled is regrettable, their case does not set precedent for MA simply because the two are incomparable. The Rat Pits had simple gameplay that was basically gambling and waiting, and no worthwhile rewards, and as of EoC was unfortunately not playable at all.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:08:14

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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This in contrast to MA, which has a very unique and varied gameplay, was a major project that took months to develop and was highly anticipated, has a large assortment of rewards (some of which have been devalued over the years; I'll get to that later) and of course isn't broken at all (modulo NXT issues and clunky mechanics; I'll also get to this). Basically, if you swat a fly you could well zap a mosquito afterwards, but you'd hardly move on to murdering bears. Terrible analogy, I know. :) Being unpopular is also quite a bad reason to remove content, there's plenty of unpopular stuff around (e.g. Livid Farm which I personally like, the Burthorpe Games Room, fletching barbed bolts) that isn't harming anyone Ś and even some stuff that is (Salt in the Wound has a negative narrative impact)!

Let us elaborate on that last point. MA is not, as far as I am aware, causing any kind of bugs or disturbances with other content. Therefore no conceivable reason for its removal would actually have to do with anything in the game other than MA itself. But this in turn means that removal is pointless to begin with: those players who like MA (yes, they do exist; I quite enjoy the occasional Rescue game, and I've met plenty of others who like it as well Ś we are a minority, but not a nonexistence) will be disappointed that a piece of content they like has gone, whereas the people who don't like MA would not even notice the removal because they would have been avoiding it in the first place. There are two buts to this statement, however. The first is that a potential advantage, from Jagex's point of view, to removal would be that they would not have to take MA into consideration when releasing new content. This is true, but then Jagex have been neglecting it since release anyway.
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Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:08:30 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:18:51 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Apart from the addition of high-level seeds to the reward shop (by the original developer Mod Maz), the game has not received any sort of update since 2009. At all. And that's really damaged it. Therefore, removing it for this reason would be like removing a room from your house because you can't be bothered to clean it Ś even though you've never cleaned it in the first place.

The second 'but' is that even some players who dislike MA do have a reason to go there: players that want the rewards (e.g. the imbued rings) and players that want to achieve Rank 400 for the completionist achievement. Removal would benefit the former group by relocating the rewards to other content (presumably) and the latter by removal of this achievement. The former fortunately isn't an issue. With all due respect, to those players I say simply that they should either play MA for the rewards even if they don't like it (not advisable) or, much better, just accept that they don't like it and hence forgo the rewards. I mean, for example, I really dislike grinding for Menaphos reputation and the quest 'Phite Club is unanimously considered quite bad (the only quest I haven't completed). Because of this I haven't had my trusty quest cape for over a year now. Am I complaining, though? No, I've simply accepted that I won't reobtain my cape for the time being and moved on.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:08:42 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:19:25 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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This all said, however, I do agree that the state of the minigame itself should not be a barrier for people, i.e. they should choose not to play it because they don't like the gameplay, not because the mechanics are annoying/broken/whatever. And while MA isn't broken, the mechanics are most assuredly rather rusty, and an update is as good as required. And then we return to my previous point of negligence; this update should have come years ago, but more on that later. Finally, the solution to the Rank 400 issue is also easy; simply remove that as a completionist requirement, or reduce it. Rank 400 only unlocks two more squad formations (all other rewards are unlocked at 300) which in my opinion is just something for diehard MA fans, not general completionists. I'd remove the requirement (reclassifying the achievement to the minigames category) or reduce it to 300 or 100 (to prove that the player has quite some MA experience but hasn't necessarily played it for much more than they would have liked to). Also, the cape and its requirements need a complete overhaul to begin with, so the cape's problems should not impact how MA is treated.

***

Furthermore, consider the following. MA offers a very unique and interesting type of gameplay that isn't available elsewhere in the game (I suppose Conquest comes a bit close in spirit, but they're completely different). For that reason alone the game should be preserved. But as I've already mentioned, while I think the minigame is quite enjoyable as is, in its current situation it's far from perfect, unfortunately. With 'never remove, always improve' in mind, consider the following problems.

Ś A quasi-efficient but afk'able i.e. boostable way to obtain more rank is to suicide rather than try to play the game normally and win. This issue has been around from the onset but became most grievously apparent when Rank 400 became a completionist requirement. This is a serious balancing issue that should be addressed.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:08:54 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 13:14:27 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Ś The rewards are outdated. Quest kits were made largely obsolete by the toolbelt, whose release did not take the kits into consideration at all. Locators have been devalued by lodestones, and were never really good to begin with due to the random teleports, and more importantly have not had newer resources and gathering locations added to them. The outfits and titles are still brilliant, but the spoils of war rewards are very underwhelming and are not compatible with the presentŚday economy. Ditto the items scavenged through exploration. Likewise, investable commodities are lacking many more recent items.

Ś It is possible only to select individual squads and cycle through them in one order, which especially makes ammo gathering in Siege very spamclicky. Adding the ability to select i) all squads of each race and ii) all light or heavy squads should solve this nicely.

Ś The camera movements are a bit clunky, but tolerable. You cannot access your chat inside the game and the arrow keys (for camera movement) become unusable if you use tab to reply to private messages (due to how EoC requires you to press enter to chat). In NXT, however, the camera is apparently broken (I do not know the details of this) but this is an issue of NXT's that pops up in other areas of the game as well and hence should not be blamed on MA.

Am I saying "fix these issues and you've got a great game Ś add a dozen fun achievements to really make it complete too!" then? Yes I am. Am I thereby also asking that Jagex invest a moderate amount of time and resources that would be more than required for removal?
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:09:10 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:19:46 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Yes, BUT: the only reason that these points are required is because, as I said, MA has been virtually untouched since its postŚrelease fixes. Locators and spoils of war should have been updated 'all the time' (that is, whenever some relevant new update came out, not literally every week); quest kits should have been immediately addressed when the toolbelt was released. The Rank balancing problems and limited squad selection options should have been addressed soon after release. Those would have been relatively tiny ninjaŚlike things to do, but over the years they accumulate and now we are where we are: a point where MA is in principle okay but its metaphorical barbican has started to crumble. I emphasise the fact that MA currently is fairly decent as is. Yes, the rewards are subpar, the boosters/afk'ers are a problem (but mind, a problem inherent to the comp cape and thaler system respectively, not MA itself) and the controls are workable but not ideal: but even so there's plenty of people who like the game and it is quite enjoyable if you look past these issues. Imagine how much more it could be if those issues were addressed.

If you ask me, Jagex have a responsibility to the game to patch it up after so much time of not touching it. Removing it now "because too few people play it" would be nasty hypocrisy. Yeah, it's not very popular Ś go figure, a thorough polish is long overdue. Imagine a patient comes into hospital with a sprained ankle. Several weeks later, his one foot has fallen off, he's contracted pneumonia and his nose is bleeding, and the doctors say "sorry for making you wait, but we can't be bothered fixing you up after ignoring you for weeks."
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

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Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:09:20 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:20:59 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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That is precisely the message removing MA would send and I need hardly explain why that is most undesirable. And, mind, these listed problems are not obscure or anything. There have been suggestions for improvements from players for years, ranging from full reworks to smaller fixes (like the ones listed in my own thread, see signature). As if the nurses had been constantly alerting the doctors about our poor patient. Obviously I understand Jagex have priorities and there is an update schedule and so on, but surely, somewhere over the past nine years, a small project could have been allocated to polishing up MA? We've had useless stuff like the Beach and those temporary "get xp to get tokens for random cosmetics" events, which I imagine can't be very different in scope.

***

So far we've examined a rather neglected but fun (potentially super fun, given ninja fixes and achievements!) and unique minigame on the brink of being removed (and for what reason again?). But is that all there is to MA? Certainly not! And no, I don't just mean that it has hiscores (those would remain in case of removal anyway) and a teleport spell and a spirit tree. What I mean is that the area, the ARMS command centre, has SO MUCH potential. For what, you ask? First of all, ARMS and MA have a very rich narrative. There is the official lore A Call to ARMS (written by Mod Osborne) that details how the organisation came to be, and chronicles some achievements of Lord Marshal Brogan. What an interesting character, we should see more of him!
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:09:30

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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More concretely, we have Junior Cadet Bertol, who is an undercover HAM agent and could appear in future stories. There is Junior Cadet Nirol, who's trying to integrate gnomes into ARMS Ś wouldn't ARMS be a great ally in the gnomish war with Khazard and Arposandra? Most interestingly, there is Junior Cadet Finda, who thinks she is close to finding 'the source' and is trying to unravel some huge conspiracy surrounding it. Personally I've been dying to find out what that means. And then there's the TzHaar from the Rescue scenario (how did they get so far away from the Elder Kiln?) and the deserting White Knight. Apart from these focussed stories, there is something else that was even mentioned in the recent survey Ś the exploration of the Unquiet Ocean, better known as the Southern Sea. There is absolutely no better medium of doing so than through ARMS, whose purpose is, after all, precisely that.

Apart from the narrative, potential and existing, the ARMS Command Centre is itself a very nice place. The attention for detail, in particular, is commendable and it would be a real shame if that were to disappear. I refer not only to the general atmosphere of a wellŚmaintained pentaracial military base, but also all the examine texts and actual physical details. Just progress through each floor of the Officers' Tower, starting in the basement, to see what I mean.
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Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:09:39 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:21:48 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Summing up, I hope to have presented a convincing argument for the preservation and revival of MA. Even though its current state is a bit sorry given its potential, that's largely due to its being ignored by Jagex over the years, rather than inherent to the game itself. And while patching it up and adding achievements now would be somewhat more work than unceremoniously getting rid of it, it should be well worth the investment (pun intended), given how unique and interesting MA can be, and how, well, disrespectfully the game has been treated in the past. And for this patching up, quick, smallish ninja fixes can go a long way. The completionist requirement could also be amended or removed at the same time. Finally, consider that MA is not just the minigame, but also the richness, both narratively and physically, of ARMS that goes with it, opening windows to potential quests and Southern Sea expeditions. Removal without higher quality replacement goes against how Jagex have treated underwhelming content in the past so far, so not only would it set a horrible precedent (what content would be safe??) and thereby negatively impact trust in the company, but also sadden the MA fans without really bringing any benefits to other people. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:09:49 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:39:30 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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So what now?
There are several scenarios, I suppose.

i) Jagex are convinced by the support for MA and do a major update to it, along with narrative expansions. Highly unlikely for the time being, but just mentioning it for completeness.
ii) Jagex are convinced by the support for MA and patch it up with minimal effort through ninja fixes to the mechanics and rewards as well as adding some fun achievements.
iii) Jagex are moderately convinced by the support for MA and agree not to remove it, but do not update it, at least for now.
iv) Jagex are not convinced and disable the minigame anyway, but leave the command centre and the ARMS NPCs for potential future use, as well as redistributing some of the rewards to other content.
v) Jagex are not convinced and disable the minigame as well as removing all traces of it, except for the hiscores and the Aquarium souvenir, possibly redistributing some of the rewards to other content.

I would suggest that we prepare for iv), aim for ii) and hope for iii) to be most realistic. In the case of i) or ii) we should rejoice. If iii) happens, let us be glad we won this battle and keep lobbying for improvement. In case of v), let us weep and switch over to OSRS. In the slightly less but still very unfortunate case of iv), which is the current prospect I presume, here are some suggestions for what to do with the rewards.

Ś Investment credits and contracts: refund gold coins at some okay rate. Let players keep contracts as a souvenir.
Ś Titles and outfits: make them discontinued, for players who liked and played MA to keep as a souvenir. Keep the reward shops open for people to spend their last reward credits.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:10:27 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:22:03 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Ś Quest kits: largely useless given the existence of the toolbelt, so discontinue them, but keep them around as a souvenir for players that have them.
Ś Locators: seem an appropriate reward for the Mage Training Arena. Ideally update them a bit to include newer resources and not teleport to the Wilderness potentially.
Ś Imbued rings: relocate these to, for instance, Soul Wars or Fist of Guthix, and ideally add newer rings.
Ś Music tracks: Command Centre remains unlocked at the Command Centre, Waiting for Battle could be relocated to the officers' tower (anyone is able to access the basement) and Mobilising Armies itself by talking to Junior Cadet Mal (who would get some dialogue about how the minigame has closed down; can give it a lore reason like disturbances in the Southern Sea caused by Grayzag's pests)

I would like to reiterate that this is a 'doomsday scenario' and I do advocate saving MA.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:10:40 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:22:13 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Epilogue


Thank you for taking the time to read this and feel free to comment and leave your thoughts. But please be civil and constructive, that is don't flame one another or go "lol ma sux jigglex plz r3m0v3" without at least the shadow of an argument. :)

Let us not allow MA to be sent to oblivion! Gather support! Fly the colours! Raise your ARMS!

Yours,
Lord Drakan/Fswe1
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

15-Oct-2018 19:10:55 - Last edited on 15-Oct-2018 19:11:04 by LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Thanks everyone for the responses! I'll try to reply to some, but first I should say I found out yesterday that the internal discussions about MA are apparently being conducted without its developer(s)... This is worrisome. I concur with Mike Lt here.

Ingmar said:
LordáDrakan said:
Being unpopular is also quite a bad reason to remove content, there's plenty of unpopular stuff around (e.g. Livid Farm which I personally like, the Burthorpe Games Room, fletching barbed bolts) that isn't harming anyone Ś and even some stuff that is!

I'd argue that it's a pretty valid reason. Sure, Livid Farm is awful content, but at least it's not as clunky as MA. The Burthorpe Games Room also works just fine, it's just that nobody has any reason to go there currently. I honestly wouldn't mind for these to be removed, though I'd love for Burthorpe's Games to find a new home.
If anything, I'm all for the removal of the Livid Farm; it's awful content, both bad for the players health and even more so for their enjoyment of the game. It's a striking example, far more so than MA is, why it's actually a great idea to start scrapping stuff.


That depends on how you view Livid Farm, really. In principle, it's intended as a way of training Magic without using combat with the upshot of also training some other skills a bit. The spells and wishes are just an extra bonus for prolonged stay. I've trained there a bit, no more than half an hour or so at a time, and then it's quite fun. If you keep grinding it out against your own better judgement just to get the spells, then yeah, that's not exactly enjoyable but then you are completely missing the point of that content.

I suppose I could say that LF is superior to MA mechanics-wise, but the gameplay of MA is much more varied and interesting; at least every round is unique, modulo boosters and afk'ers.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

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16-Oct-2018 07:42:54

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Wolfblue42 said:
I was only able to play it a few times way back when thaler came out. Seems you are only able to play it on its 2 specific worlds as the game forces you to play there. No one actually played it seriously though, they just wanted their reward and died quickly over choosing to play.

I think that's the sad state of minigames that they could remove almost all of em and no one would really notice. I do somewhat agree that it is a bad trend of just delete over trying to fix. But sadly the input of effort wouldn't be worth the output they get of 0 people using it.

Yes, the thaler system did much more bad than it did good, but that aside, MA has in recent years been populated mostly by boosters and afk'ers (I must admit to only meeting maybe a dozen real enthusiasts whilst playing MA itself over the last two years) because of the completionist requirement. Which is a whole different problem of its own. :( But that is a valid point, nowadays many players seem to miss the point of the whole game entirely (games are played for one's own enjoyment) and instead focus on getting XP. I blame MTX, which offers egregious quantities of trivially obtained xp and cosmetics, whereas minigame rewards ask you to work for them, as they should. The worst part is that Jagex are nowadays actually catering to that type of player, and that's awful. They should stop doing that and focus on good content and I think reworking the comp cape and thaler system from scratch, as well as polishing all minigames to some degree (see my thread :D) should be a part of that.

Rikornak said:
snip

Good points as always. These things warrant case-by-case reviews in my opinion.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

16-Oct-2018 07:49:31

LordáDrakan

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Amascut said:
Trimming the fat on incredibly weak content entries is an important thing for a game of this size. MA has been a terrible minigame essentially from the launch and finding a new home for the rewards and characters housed within is a far more worthwhile move than wasting time updating the game, only to see people continue to not play it.

Barbarian Assault proved that reworking minigames is rarely, if ever, worth Jagex's time to do. In some cases it's very sad, like Conquest. In this case it's a mercy killing.

I addressed the former point though; it was quite good around release, with the exception of the wonky camera. It was supposed to be experimental content, and not necessarily a huge, superb best update ever, as Andrew remarked. Perhaps the experiment wasn't as successful as it could have been but it's far from a failure. But now you say 'wasting time updating', whereas I have argued that it's long overdue, since it should have been updated years ago.

A good update should always attract more people. BA is a good example, though. That last update was excellent - hard mode and the Penance King are absolutely amazing, but even so it's less crowded on an average day than it was a few years ago. The stupid thaler system is only partially to blame here, I think the major factor is what I said in my reply to Wolfblue. That and the fact that Jagex seem to hate quests' and minigames' being worthwhile (see this for instance) in the first place. That said, the BA friends' chat is always crowded and you can always find games there, so there's that.

Updating minigames is definitely a worthwhile thing to do. If some content needs an update, update it, and stop catering to xp-zombie-players. If updates were only made based on what most players want, we'd have 100% Slayer and no quests at all for instance.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

16-Oct-2018 07:57:25

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Yusou Bhoroi said:
3) If they had even said that removing MA would allow them more chance to focus on upgrading other Minigames/making a new MA, then it'd be a little more bearable, but they don't even seem to have that as a long-term aim.. it's simply that they're planning on removing pretty much every Minigame, and are just waiting till they think there will be as little protest as possible, by slowly ensuring the Minigames die off, over time (removing their rewards, preventing them from being played, never mentioning them, not even doing them as CM events).


4) Livid Farm is a much needed Astral rune sink, which doesn't even do a good job, anymore, given the 2 massive reductions, the boosters, the double points weekends, and now the ability to buy points with gp (which, if they were ever going to do, which is massively questionable practice, in the first place, they should have made buyable with runes, not gp).
Besides which, not everyone hates it.. I've gone well past the cap, on 4 accounts, now, and find it somewhat cathartic (it's something active, but that allows you to talk while doing it).

*sigh* Good points, unfortunately, especially on the former. Let them know that we do protest! :| As for Livid Farm, yeah, it's much easier now. I bought a Livid Plant from the travelling fishing merchant for the achievement and got something like 25k Produce Points from it, which would amount to, what, an hour of playing the activity? A bit more, I think. I was also curious about the other items and got almost 100 Stealing Creation points (likewise an hour and a half of playing good games) for only 600k. This is also related to the post I linked to in my reply to Amascut, I suppose. Hurgh.

Thanks for your support as usual! :D
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
Ś Zanik

16-Oct-2018 08:02:56

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Yusou Bhoroi said:
One possible way of getting Minigames updated/upgraded, would be if they started doing holiday events/events based in a Minigame, when they update it (that way they get to use some of the event slot, as well as an update slot) - the event will be different to the now-standard even template, and will be fun, engaging content.

A lot of peoples' active playing time is taken up by temporary events, that aren't always that well received, yet get recycled (endlessly), on top of all the other daily stuff they have to do.. which is one of the main reasons people don't have time, or people, to do Minigames.

Combining the two, would allow both things to be done at once, while ensuring more people get to know about, and experience the content, thus it'll allow the proportion who potentially enjoy the content, to find that out.. rather than spending their whole RS-life without ever even seeing the content.

What a lovely suggestion! :D I hope Jagex will read it, this is actually a really good idea. Also, quests involving minigames (Void trilogy, Nomad quests) have gone down very well. Future Elder God quests could easily involve Stealing Creation, for instance, and of course ARMS and MA are practically begging for expansion through quests.

Peaky said:
I've begged and pleaded for fixes to minigames. Even sweeping changes that would fix some of the biggest, universal issues(nobody playing, for example).

Many others have done the same.

You and me both. :( We have to keep fighting, though, otherwise they'll start removing things willy nilly. Oh wait they have.

Suwapro said:
Support. MA was fun, and if you're going to remove MA, you might as well remove Soul wars, GOP, FOG etc.

Shh, don't give them ideas. :P

~

Thanks all, keep the comments coming and spread the word! :D
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16-Oct-2018 08:06:36

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Deltaslug said:
1) isn't MA literally broken in NXT?
While the gama might still be playable in the java client. I've seen,plenty of complaints about people who use nxt being unable to play it at all.
The majority of players now are on,the nxt client.

Nah, NXT is broken in MA. A bit like EoC, it was released prematurely. (not just because of this)

As for your other points, yeah, you're right, a significant portion of the community has degenerated into maximum efficiency xp addicts. And as you rightly conclude, Jagex keep catering to them. If you ask me, if there's any hope to steering RS3 back in the right direction, then the complete opposite has to be done. Rehabilitate those players and ignore their whinging.

NexáisáLife said:
Delete MA

Thank you, that's helpful.

I reiterate that, so far, not a single reason for removal has actually been provided... I've hypothesised a few in the OP and tried to counter them, but otherwise all I've got was "to update it is more effort", which is a point I also addressed...
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16-Oct-2018 18:29:39

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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NexáisáLife said:
LordáDrakan said:
NexáisáLife said:
Delete MA

Thank you, that's helpful.

I reiterate that, so far, not a single reason for removal has actually been provided... I've hypothesised a few in the OP and tried to counter them, but otherwise all I've got was "to update it is more effort", which is a point I also addressed...
1 one less pointless trim req
2 its literally unplayable and not worth fixing

Thanks for the clarification. 1 is a problem of the comp cape, not MA and regardless can easily be fixed without doing anything to MA. As for 2, yes the camera is broken in NXT but then that's a problem of NXT's and you can still use the in-game buttons to control the camera. I hope. :|

Deltaslug said:
From a lore perspective, Jagex absolutely failed in utilizing them over the last decade.

Here you have a moderately sized mercenary army.

Can you imagine the number of quests where it would have been helpful to have had them?

Yeah, it's a shame. Could argue they would only be involved with the Southern Sea and related affairs but they could've cameo'd in the void series, or been mentioned. But fortunately there's plenty of narrative opportunities still around for them! :D

Cyanid said:
Game is better off without it. Stop forcing players to play dead minigames that no one ever liked.

Why is it, though? And nobody's forcing anyone to play anything. :) If you don't like it, don't play. But as I argued, the people who do like it would be negatively impacted by a removal, whereas the people who don't (e.g. you and Jodeceii, which, again, is fine) wouldn't even notice. "I don't like it ergo it should be removed" is not an argument, just selfishness...
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17-Oct-2018 17:25:55

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Cyanid said:
>"lel, No one's forcing you to do it"
>Makes it a trim req to do a dead minigame that literally no one plays

?????

Very very few people care about this minigame past getting trimmed comp reqs. Most people will be happy to see it gone.

As I said, that achievement is a separate problem that could easily be dealt with without touching MA at all. E.g. by simply removing it as a trim req.

ELITEáSTACK said:
Broken or not, it was not popular to begin with. It can be removed to make way for something else. People still play castle wars soul wars and stealing creation on spotlight. They go on and off afking but mostly play the game.

If that were the case, though, fine. But it's not making way for something else, unfortunately; they aren't adding a replacement. :(
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17-Oct-2018 18:07:57

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Dilbert2001 said:
If Jagex deem Mobilizing Armies antiquated and incompetent as a game feature, perhaps it should just be replaced by a more enjoyable piece of content.

I could get behind that personally, but there's no replacement coming. :(
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19-Oct-2018 13:18:11

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Following Mod Chaose's tweets, it seems that removal is definitive. DESPITE the fact that there isn't really any benefit to it that couldn't be attained otherwise, DESPITE the fact that no explicit arguments have been stated by Jagex, nor counterarguments to protests such as this thread, and despite repeated attempts to obtain such information. Basically, it's all but certainly happening and pleas for it not to, even just inquiries as to why, are being ignored.

I wonder which content is next?
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

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19-Oct-2018 19:17:34

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Good points. Basically, we have the following problems:

- Thaler system caused afk'ing in MA;
- Comp Cape (everything Zudma said about it is correct) caused boosting in MA;
- NXT caused controls issues in MA;
- Toolbelt and negligence caused rewards issues in MA.

Obvious solution: fix each problem to prevent them from doing more harm elsewhere.

Jigglex solution: remove MA and pretend the cause of the problems isn't there. Also, be secretive about it.
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20-Oct-2018 09:28:01

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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ELITEáSTACK said:
Remove the catapult from castle wars.

Never heard this before. Why? :P

@Trevopada: Thank you, :). Unfortunately, you make good points. However, the only reason MA could even be considered for removal (presumably - Jagex still haven't stated a reason) is to do with the consequences of other things (comp cape, thaler, etc) as well as issues with the game itself such as outdated rewards (yep, Deltaslug, you're right) and clunky controls that could and should have been fixed years ago. To remove it at this point, while debatably effective, is plain dishonourable and disrespectful to the developers. Indeed, nowadays most players just care about xp and Slayer rather than, y'know, enjoying the game, and Jagex are catering to that. We differ in opinion in that I think Jagex should not be doing this, and instead try to get players to enjoy as much as possible (which includes fixing up things that need it, like MA) rather than keep showering them with xp. Yeah, it's an investment, but the current direction the way is going, everything's giong to get worse.
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21-Oct-2018 08:08:37

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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Unfortunately, it's the worst case scenario. According to Mod Chaose (who is apparently implementing the removal, which by now is certainly happening) on Twitter, we have the following changes

- Minigame is being removed, as is the entire command centre including the bank. So there go all the future quests we could have had. Teleports remain.
- Hiscores remain. Presumably so is the Aquarium siege castle.
- Reward and investment credits are refunded for coins but the rates are 'unfavourable'.
- The achievement to get 401 Rank remains but awards no more RuneScore (and obviously isn't a comp cape requirement).
- Quest kits are being kept but cannot be reobtained.
- Locators can be made with Divination and have at least elder trees added to them. Why didn't they update them earlier? :(
- Imbued rings move to Soul Wars; new ones are also added (WHY NOT EARLIER) but to Mazcab Raids so, er, yeah good luck getting those.
- Outfits and titles are going to the thaler shop so have fun watching afk'ers sport Lord Marshal. :(
- Music tracks are likely going to be automatically unlocked.
- All squad contracts and the rank enhancers will be removed.

Also this will take 'a few weeks', but that's not set in stone.

In summary, this entire exercise was futile and we might well not have bothered. Go get all quest kits to keep as a souvenir, guys, and unlock those imbued rings if haven't got the Zeal to spare, and if you're close to Rank 400, might as well try and get it before it becomes impossible.
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22-Oct-2018 11:18:44

LordáDrakan

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I wholeheartedly agree but I fear it's too late now. Still, keep shouting on all platforms (forums and Twitter and Reddit and Discord and whatever exists nowadays) and there's a tiny, tiny chance they might reconsider.

To fix the boosting problem, the solution is easy: remove the option to attack the castle walls (I did an experiment; attacking the castle walls with squads rather than catapulting it is absolutely fruitless, it takes no damage whatsoever). As for afk'ing, that would be trickier, since every minigame is affected by this and the thaler system needs a proper rework.

It's very sad that MA has suffered collateral damage from the thaler system's and blooming NXT's not working properly and now has to pay the price...whilst the 'offenders' go free.
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22-Oct-2018 11:32:13

LordáDrakan

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Thanks very much for the reply, Mod Poerkie! (sorry your first attempt failed...)

I'd like to reply to the last point, though; according to Mod Chaose, the entire command centre is being removed as well, so how could the storyline of ARMS (and Finda and Bertol) be picked up if, well, everything's gone?
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22-Oct-2018 13:38:26

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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I remember that thread; what were the details again? Remind me please.

Status update, it's been done already. MA has been removed; the "update" is awaiting a release build (whatever that means). So that's much sooner than anticipated. New imbued rings indeed are being added, but to Mazcab raids, so good luck ever getting those. Mod Chaose has posted a picture: the entire Command Centre has been removed. All of it. Not a single brick or person left. My protests have largely been ignored.

Well, I'm impressed. This could not have been handled more disrespectfully really; to the content, to its developers, to the players.
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02-Nov-2018 17:40:43

LordáDrakan

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Deltaslug said:
Mod chaose's twitter already shows the first step in removal.

Sadly seems they aren't doing too much with the area other than adding in a few more eucolyptus trees (and here I was hoping for moving Shattered Worlds :()

I actually think it's the last step...
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06-Nov-2018 07:50:37

LordáDrakan

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MavisDracula said:
No support..

I'm sorry - I'm sure Jagex has a clear view on number of players playing the minigame. I'm sure it's massively underwhelming.

Yeah it is, but how does that constitute a ground for removal? :/ If anything, it's quite the opposite; if some huge piece of content isn't popular, make it so. :D

@Yusou: Thanks for the lengthy explanation!
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11-Nov-2018 08:29:53

LordáDrakan

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RunezScape said:
This is my reasoning to why I support not removing it. Removing this Minigame is another nail to the players never having anything worthwhile ever again.

Jagex is getting more out of MTX, interactive PvM and subtly forcing to make AFK120/Cape Goals, that they could easily wipe a majority of this game and you all would never notice.

This game is over saturated. The players have been absolutely handed everything. Gold is extremely easy to acquire. They gave everyone XP with all of these double xp weekends, MTX, and all of this other crap. Then made it even easier by tacking on GOOD AFK methods to absolutely everything, turning players who would have never made it to max levels had you had to actually put in effort and the rates were back to what they once were. All this free stuff bottlenecked into too many players reaching levels where their only options are high level pvm, blasting through that once a month maybe quest and waiting for the next empty skill extension/far and few brand new skill because Jagex knows any other efforts will be DOA.

What can you give a player base that already has everything? That's the problem of this game.

Genuine fun has been replaced with looking for the next filler.

This, so much this. The point of minigames (and D&Ds to a slightly lesser extent) is also that they're supposed to be for everybody; endless enjoyment even after you've got a comp cape and what not. The requirements are up-to-date gameplay and rewards. And of course to stop catering to the afk xp mtx zombies...
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16-Nov-2018 07:28:14

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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We have lost. Farewell, Mobilising Armies: 8 July 2009 - 3 December 2018. You shall always remain in our hearts.

* Transcripts with all NPCs (except operators) are on the wiki.
* Examines of all interesting things can be found here: https://runescape.wiki/w/User:Fswe1/Laboratory4.
* Will upload images of everything as well.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

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03-Dec-2018 11:51:25

LordáDrakan

LordáDrakan

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BigáStorms said:
Was hoping on perhaps playing it one last time on a spotlight, then again this thread had already made me play the game one last time (thank you!). Besides, with people afking for the achievement it would not have been that much fun anyway.

I wonder if they accounted for all the changes though:
- Is the achievement removed? (else we will have discontinued runescore/achievements, a bit unfair)
- Has the spotlight been removed? (else we will be in for a fun time January 9th =p) Well to be fair they have a month worth of time to notice this, call it a test ;)

Achievement exists as a hidden one for those who have it, with 0 runescore. Spotlight has presumably been removed.
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03-Dec-2018 15:31:01

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