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Cthris

Cthris

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It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.

Seren also caused the demise of the mahserrat, chellonmah, and another third tribe I can't remember. (Mahserrat weren't even complicit in rituals btw).

Bandos made a ton of races lol. Pretty sure he should be in the lead for least genocides based on your logic with Zaros. :P

22-Dec-2016 02:19:53

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Cthris said:
It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.

Seren also caused the demise of the mahserrat, chellonmah, and another third tribe I can't remember. (Mahserrat weren't even complicit in rituals btw).

Bandos made a ton of races lol. Pretty sure he should be in the lead for least genocides based on your logic with Zaros. :P

Ooooo that's very interesting about Zaros, I'll have to include it.

Because we aren't sure how many tribes were affected by Seren's actions, or if they fully constituted unique races, I'll just make them a single category as 'Children of Mah.

And Bandos, bless his stony corpse, is dead so I didn't include him in any tally. :p
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:24:59

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Unicornz pwn said:
Zamorak shoulders more responsibility for the Aviansie.


Why? How come Saradomin is responsible for the Centaurs, but Armadyl isn't responsible for the Aviansie? They both brought them to Gielnor and used them as soldiers. Both races were nearly wiped out under their leadership.

The only difference is that one was eradicated instantly by a single individual, while another was eradicated over time against multiple opponents.

Unicornz pwn said:
Zaros did not cause the riders' infertility, nor did he have any role in the Cthonians being overthrown.


Do you really think he helped the matter by having them join the war effort? "Hey, your population is diminishing and you have no way of replenishing it. Come fight and die for me!"

As for the Cthonians, they were still under Zaros's leadership. And they were wiped out by Zaros's most trusted commander, who he failed to keep in check. Therefore, Zaros failed them as a leader. Had they not joined him, they would still be alive.

Unicornz pwn said:
Not really sure how Zamorak can be blamed for the Mahjarrat's present condition...


He caused a massive split in their ranks when they rebelled against Zaros. Many were killed. Even more will killed afterwards in the ensuing God Wars against Saradomin, Armadyl, and Bandos. They continued to sacrifice each other afterwards because they believed in Zamorak's philosophy of "survival of the fittest." Now they only have about a dozen or so left.

It's flimsy logic, but so is the logic you use for many of your other arguments.
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 02:28:04

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Cthris said:
It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.


Was that the exact wording? Because to me, that only suggests he looked for survivors to see if there was still some hope for her race to continue. What would he gain by hunting her to extinction?
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 02:30:56 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:31:40 by NotFishing

Hazeel

Hazeel

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NotFishing said:
Why isn't Armadyl responsible for the Aviansie?


I'm not sure tbh. Zamorak's troops simply defended themselves in war and Zamorak blew up the continent. Armadyl is the one who locked them into a warzone cage, wouldn't let them leave, and put every single one he could find into a God's battlefield in Forinthry.

NotFishing said:
Why isn't Zaros responsible for the Dragon Riders or Cthonians?


He didn't kill the Dragon Riders, he just lied to them. He was "dead" during the war with the Cthonians--who by the way aren't even close to being extinct.

NotFishing said:
Why isn't Zamorak responsible for the Mahjarrat?


I can't even begin to fathom how you came to this conclusion. Tumeken was the one who killed them. By the time Zamorak was even a God, there were around a dozen or so left. And it's not like he discouraged breeding either, since he had his own son.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

22-Dec-2016 02:32:47

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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@Fishy

I think the distinction you made between how the Aviansie and the Centaurs were wiped out is important, and it factored into my assessment.

A large part of Infernus was independently controlled by the Cthonians, not Zaros, and on top of that, Zamorak's actions are independent of Zaros'.

And I considered adding Tumeken to the list for his incineration of the desert and a large amount of the Mahjarrat but even I found that a stretch. I can be accused of bending the rules and terms a little, but your own assessments would snap them outright.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:34:02

Cthris

Cthris

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NotFishing said:
Cthris said:
It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.


Was that the exact wording? Because to me, that only suggests he looked for survivors to see if there was still some hope for her race to continue. What would he gain by hunting her to extinction?

You can listen r to it yourself but I'm pretty sure the exact words were ensure in the context of cause. What would be the point of saying Zaros looked for them when the question asked was whether they still existed es. Also the reason to do so was to cause a Mega powerful Char, due to her grief she gained all these extra ordinary powers that most of her race didnt.

22-Dec-2016 02:37:21 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:39:08 by Cthris

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Unicornz pwn said:
I can be accused of bending the rules and terms a little, but your own assessments would snap them outright.


You do realize I was using your logic against you, right?

Apparently, if you put a race under your leadership, and then said race dies under your leadership, you are responsible. But for whatever reason that only applies to Saradomin, and not literally every other god who has had soldiers die on their watch.

Cthris said:
You can listen r to it yourself but I'm pretty sure the exact words were ensure in the context of cause. What would be the point of saying Zaros looked for them when the question asked was whether they still existed es. Also the reason to do so was to cause a Mega powerful Char, due to her grief she gained all these extra ordinary powers that most of her race didnt.


I'm not going to dig up an old podcast. But let me get this straight:

Q: Did anyone from Char's race survive?
A: Zaros ensured that there weren't any left.

That is still ambiguous.

Why would Zaros try to save Char's race? For the same reason he tried to save the Dragon Riders and the Mahjarrat. For the same reason he gave the Vampyres a society. To help them reach their full potential and get them on his side in one move.
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 02:48:07 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:48:41 by NotFishing

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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@Fishy

Once again there is a distinction between how the two races met their end. One was from constant warring at the command of their god (the same logic that would make Bandos responsible for genocide) and the other was the result of an individual literally nuking them all.

Armadyl has partial responsibility, but as far as who is primarily responsible, I think a case for Zamorak is much more compelling.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:51:14

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Unicornz pwn said:
Once again there is a distinction between how the two races met their end. One was from constant warring at the command of their god (the same logic that would make Bandos responsible for genocide) and the other was the result of an individual literally nuking them all.


See Hazel's post above about how Armadyl brought the entire race into Forinthry. You really don't think Armadyl is responsible for that?
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 02:54:42 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:55:26 by NotFishing

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