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Why Saradomin split his armies

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Hguoh

Hguoh

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Zamorak and Saradomin worked together in the early days of the God Wars to eradicate the Zarosian remnants. The battle over the Ritual Site likely occurred during this period. The expectation of this alliance being that Saradomin take control of the Zarosian territories immediately nearby his own territories (or at least take home some of the Zarosian innovations), while Zamorak would take the territories further away.

For all appearances, this alliance lasted until at least when the armies took Senntisten, which, for all appearances occurred quite a while after Hallowvale was taken by Drakan. Around this time, the alliance broke down. Perhaps Zamorak learned Saradomin had the Catalyst, wanted it back, and struck first. Perhaps Saradomin wasn't comfortable having another god's stronghold so close to his own and he struck first.

Who knows? But the alliance did break down, and the two gods set upon each other. Saradomin gathered allies amongst the other gods to face Zamorak with him. Eventually, Zamorak is driven back, with Saradomin claiming much of the territory taken from Zamorak, constructing/claiming fortresses in said territory. When Zamorak was finally cornered, he utilized the Catalyst in an unstable state and razed the continent of Forinthry. Guthix woke up, and the god wars were put to an end.

So yeah, pretty sure Saradomin was spread thin due to his part in the alliance with Zamorak, who had yet to become an enemy/threat to Saradomin's territories. Given how the alliance seems to have persisted for quite a while after the loss of Hallowvale, I wouldn't be surprised if Zamorak managed to paint Drakan as a rogue agent with a following acting against orders (this narrative changing to blaming Zamorak once the alliance broke down).

Heck, maybe Hallowvale's fall was an agreed upon deal between Zamorak and Saradomin (given the relative ease with which it was taken) so Saradomin could take all the Zarosian tech he wanted.

01-Mar-2018 00:51:21 - Last edited on 01-Mar-2018 01:00:56 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Why would Saradomin agree to cut a rather narrow corridor through the farthest Zarosian army with no Saradominist interest? There were no hidden technologies there, right? These are questions I’ve been straining to dream up answers for- without success. The even more vexing question about why Saradomin leveled the whole wall while already possessing the Catalyst, though, no one prefers to even raise.


Territories and tech along the way.

The potential to take out one of the greatest remaining military forces of the Zarosian Empire. The same empire that just attacked non-militarized Saradominists just before Zamorak's coup went down.

Aiding his ally Zamorak gain footholds at a time when Zamorak had only recently returned and had minimal followers and was busy fighting other gods trying to take the Empire's territory for their own.

Also, leveling the wall? Not sure I know what you're talking about.

Melanophobe said:
At the point of the appearance of Saradominist forces deep beyond enemy lines meant they had moved (or teleported) way up, far from the actual borders between Hallowvale and Senntisten. Mind you, the frontier had not yet run through conquered territory in the early Third Age, as you say yourself the Zarosian capital didn't fall until much later.


The Zarosian capital was one of the last, if not the last, major bastion of Zarosianism to fall in the 3rd age. Given the apparent division of the Empire's territories by this point (Zamorak at least controlled most of Forinthry, while Saradomin seems to have taken parts of Southern Forinthry), the frontier first moved past Senntisten (largely ignoring/corralling it) swept across the less defended country side, took out most of the Zarosian fortresses, and then turned back to Senntisten.

And, again, Nex was a valuable piece to remove from the war as quickly as possible.

01-Mar-2018 19:36:57

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Here, you really no longer have any way of saying Zamorak the cannibal, as before he was cutting corridors to the east, sappy Saradomin made it easy for him. Even if Saradomin was cutting north-western bound corridors, you say with Zamorak’s consent, he ironically did without the latter’s help, who supposedly had the Mahjarrat's best interests at heart.


It's a matter of priorities really. We know several gods were invading and conquering the territories of the Zarosian Empire. We also know that Zamorak didn't have much territory to speak of when he returned to Gielinor due to the conquest of said gods. Because of this, we can expect Zamorak's forces at this time to have largely been tied up in regaining the empire's territory and holding it.

Presumably, Zamorak's tied up dealing with other gods seeking to conquer, and finds out that the Zarosians are trying to take and hold the Ritual Site with Nex and her army. Normally, he'd be in quite a pickle (due to how that endangers his most powerful followers), but he conveniently has another god with a notable vendetta against the Zarosians and trades the location of one of the most powerful and dangerous Zarosian generals and her army, forges an alliance, and keeps the Mahjarrat safe.

Not confirmed by any means, but it seems to be a plausible explanation of the events that occurred.

01-Mar-2018 19:50:54 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2018 04:08:28 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Senntisten could not care less whether Zamorak went east or not. Saradomin’s Icyene followers, by contrast, very much did care. Was this possibly some kind of scheme pulled by Wahisietel? If Zamorak headed east, the Icyene would be the first victims. Zarosians, before Saradomin struck Nex , were thus, indirectly, his natural allies. He could have stayed neutral, but instead lunged a sword into the back of those wishing to exhaust themselves in battle against Zamorakians. That sort of alliance, however, Saradomin unfortunately was not after.


You seem to be misunderstanding events. At the beginning of the God Wars, Zamorak had next to no territory, most of it having been taken by the forces of other gods prior to his return to Gielinor. Upon his return, he set about reclaiming the territories of the Zarosian Empire, which largely consisted of Forinthry, far to the north of Hallowvale and away from Saradominist territories. This demand on his forces makes it very easy to pass Drakan off as or for Drakan to have actually been a rogue agent given how far away he operated from the Zamorakian frontlines.

Saradomin, on the other hand, had spent much of the 2nd age losing territory to the Zarosian Empire's expansion, and had been attacked unprovoked by Zarosian forces at the age's end (though that was a ploy by the Zamorakian rebels to get the Zarosian guard out of Senntisten during the coup). To him, Zamorak was the enemy of his enemy. And the enemy of my enemy is somebody I can work with to deal with my enemy. And given how Zamorak was tied up reclaiming the empire, his forces should have posed little threat to Saradomin's territories anyway.

01-Mar-2018 20:03:34 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2018 04:09:13 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Some may retort, yes, Saradomin sacrificed some of his people, but also turned out arms to protect those left behind. We have already had occasion to see how utterly unsuited they were to defending his own territory and shielding his own people. They had either to be pressed into roles not scripted for them (human warriors vs Nex, really?) or simply junked.


We have one claim that Saradominists lured Nex into ice caves and put her and her forces in suspended animation there. However, this doesn't make sense with the revelation that the Temple of Lost Ancients was built upon Nex's palace and that Nex and her forces were imprisoned within said palace. My guess as to what actually occurred:

Saradomin gets wind of Nex's location. He sends a small strike force of Temple Knights to the area in secret and equips them with a spell to put an area in a form of suspended animation. The Temple Knights wait until the bulk of Nex's forces and, most importantly, Nex herself are within the palace before they cast the spell. From there, it's a simple matter of Saradominist forces mopping up the stragglers outside the palace and burying the evidence. This sort of tactic falls fairly well in line with the M.O. of the Temple Knights.

Melanophobe said:
Don’t you agree that every Zarosian fortress in and under Forinthry taken by Zamorak would be a future obstacle for Saradomin?


You're assuming Saradomin would know that he and Zamorak would eventually be on opposing sides. We already know Zamorak to be very capable of pledging loyalty to a god's face and operating against them in secret. And that's if we assume Zamorak was plotting against Saradomin this whole time. We still don't know what event caused the breakdown of their alliance (Zamorak professes Saradomin turned against him), so Zamorak could have been entirely sincere in this alliance.

03-Mar-2018 21:27:14

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
So, basically, as the Zarosians were having a sigh of relief, believing war staved off due to Zamorak’s slow resurgence, Saradomin struck first as part of the bargain, seemingly getting intel from his fresh ally. As no one was flagging possible surprises and complications, Saradomin moved his colossus towards the Ritual site at precisely the time Zamorak was embroiled in the front’s southern sector, as Saradomin’s forces were being distracted by Nex’s remote army.


The Zarosians never got a breath of relief. After the coup, Zamorak was taken to Forinthry, and the Zamorakians fled, taking defectors and gaining more converts in the meantime. The Zarosians attempted to crush the Zamorakian rebels, but found themselves beset on all sides by the armies of other gods. Gods whom they had previously taken territory from. Gods who considered them a threat due to what they had done to other gods and territories. Gods who wanted the wealth of the empire for themselves.

Saradomin falls into all these camps. The Zarosian Empire had grown close to his borders. We know that the Zarosians had taken and converted Saradominist territories in the past despite the stalemate they appeared to be at at the end of the 2nd age. We know that Zarosian forces struck down poorly armed Saradominists just before the coup. And we know that Saradomin knew that Zaros had just been struck down.

I also find myself doubtful that Zamorak had managed to reclaim the more Southern Zarosian territories by the time Hallowvale was taken (~8 centuries after the city was founded, so early in the God Wars) or the Battle for the Ritual Site (purported to have occurred early in the God Wars) as the frontlines in the God Wars were famously slow to move. Zamorakian forces were far away from Hallowvale, Zarosians were tied up dealing with invading armies, and other gods were busy carving up the empire. Saradomin's territories should have been safe.

03-Mar-2018 21:40:00

Hguoh

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So it is very easy to pass off Drakan as a rogue Zamorakian given how far away he was operating from other Zamorakians and the stark difference in targeted territories at the time.

Melanophobe said:
Then, realizing Nex is unstoppable, at his own army’s output’s expense, Saradomin had managed to lure her in her into the icy prison for the sake of convenience. Then, as Zamorak was fighting close near home, Saradomin used up his reserves to cut through Forinthry’s fortresses (hypothetical walls), though, for some reason, Saradomin failed to besiege Ghorrock, perhaps believing the Zarosian valuables were south, and then Drakan attacked...


Pretty sure Ashuelot Reis' story isn't too accurate given Nex was imprisoned in her own home.

And Ghorrock wasn't a significant military or resourceful target. It's a fortress in a notably cold climate (not yet the excessively icy wasteland we know it as) , surrounded by mountains that make attacking it difficult, and is fairly far away from the territory of other gods. Ghorrock fell to nobody because nobody wanted Ghorrock.

03-Mar-2018 21:42:05 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2018 21:47:59 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Now imagine, on the far side of the wall you have living a cannibal who has blared out how he is looking forward to wolfing you down. Satisfied, you have gotten the message loud and clear, and he starts knocking down the partition that sits between your borders. How will you react?


You're assuming Zamorak made his intentions clear. Even if we grant the assertion of Zamorak intending to topple Saradomin next, Zamorak could have very well have hidden that.

Drakan takes Hallowvale? Well, Zamorak and the main body of his forces are clearly tied up far more North, and he has little reason split his forces while up against the armies of other gods. So Drakan comes off as a rogue agent.

Can Zamorak help put down his rabid dog? Sure, as soon as he can actually spare the forces to do so. Capturing Senntisten and it's infrastructure gets Zamorak both geographically and economically in a better position to aid against Drakan.

Melanophobe said:
Unfortunately for Zamorak, it took him until that fateful day Saradomin claimed Senntisten for himself. Zamorak would try to outmaneouver Saradomin, but it was too late. Zamorak could hope for no more than brilliant tactical feats while retreating from “Saranthium”, but found himself ground up from all sides.

Some say Saradomin only won thanks to help and cooperation from Armadyl and Bandos. It goes to the heart of what made Saradomin such a towering figure: he, Zamorak's ally number one, managed to exploit other gods to defend him, adding muscle to his authority. Until this very turn of events, Saradomin had wisely feigned neutrality.


Given Zamorak's insistence that Saradomin betrayed him, I'm inclined to believe that Zamorak was sincerely invested in the alliance. I am, however, also inclined to believe that Saradomin would think and reason about the situation much like you have:

03-Mar-2018 22:01:41

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Letting Zamorakian forces take the city, concentrate forces and resources into a single city, and then level it with the SoJ or the help of the armies of his new allies Bandos and Armadyl.

Melanophobe said:
In reality, then, Zamorak’s already on Gielinor when Saradomin dares to face Nex with his army. If so, why would Saradominist soldiers, who were only on par with Zamorakian troops in both quantity and quality, fight the unstoppable Nex alone? Zamorak’s myth merchants would say: some of our soldiers fought, but, in the beginning they weren’t enough, nor any good, obsolete. No point even paying attention to them, let’s just define the most sophisticated type: the Mahjarrat. Those deployed before the alliance, we’ll just forget about: junk. Here, though, is how this “junk” looked in terms of qualities:


For one, the Zamorakians were busy fighting on other fronts trying to snatch back territory they'd lost in Zamorak's absence.

For two, I'm doubting a significant Saradominist military force actually did battle directly with Nex. See prior posts for issues with Ashuelot's tale of events.

For three, I'm very doubtful that the Saradominists acted alone on this one. The target is far more important to Zamorakians, after all, and the statement that the Saradominists acted alone comes from an individual in a time period when Saradomin and Zamorak were enemies and most traces of their former alliance annihilated.

03-Mar-2018 22:03:15 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2018 22:11:22 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Thanks to those qualities, Zamorak could cursh his foes not merely by numbers, but rather by maneuvering and concentrating Mahjarrat as a magic striking force at break-neck speed, able to move quickly and strike true, sweeping across obstacles and knifing deep into the enemy’s rear, quickly covering vast amounts of terrain.


Mahjarrat are formidable yes, but not unstoppable by any means (as we've clearly witnessed). The Carnilleans managed to disable Hazeel for more than a century due to a quick strike in the night. Zemouregal has been foiled at least twice in his attempts to conquer Varrock with a zombie army (his area of expertise) by mere humans. Enakhra built temples more than she fought. Bilrach was a Summoner who brought Demons to Gielinor to fight rather than do so himself. Lamistard is known to have avoided direct conflict with other Mahjarrat by tunneling beneath the Ritual Site indicating at least a preference against participating in conflict (if not being less effective in combat). Lucien was physically weak (could barely lift a sword) with some strength in spell casting, and was promised control over Forinthry (so more of a management kinda guy than a fighter). Palkeera was particularly special to Zamorak. Ralvash was of 'average power' for a Mahjarrat (similar to Bilrach minus the demon summoning).

And this is even before we consider the weaknesses of the Mahjarrat: they are few, and they are fragile. By the time the God Wars came about, there weren't many Mahjarrat left, and for all their power, they've proven quite able to die in combat and be imprisoned for extended periods of time. Normally, this wouldn't be that big of an issue for a race, but Mahjarrat had notable difficulties reproducing and needed to sacrifice at least one of their number on a regular basis in a specific manner.

Overextending with them the way you speak of could easily mark the end of their species.

03-Mar-2018 22:29:01

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Another possibility is that there was not any agreement between Saradomin and Zamorak yet, so that the former took the initiative, and locked Nex down to keep both rival Mahjarrat from benefiting.


We are told Saradominist Forces stuck around at least long enough to build the Temple of Lost Ancients and bury Nex's palace. We are given little indication that he made any attempt at controlling the Ritual Site himself or even knew of its significance. For all appearances, his interests were in removing Nex and her sizable portion of the remaining Zarosian military.

Melanophobe said:
Wouldn’t it make more sense, then, if Zamorak's vampyre would go north-westwards, against the thin-spread Zarosian formations in Forinthry (if not already beaten), instead of driving a wedge through Saradomin’s sacred Icyene city(Chronologically speaking, for all we know, the latter took place right after the Battle for the Ritual Plateau, that's why it's so apalling when being allies).


That's also why it makes no sense for Drakan to be operating under Zamorak's orders when he attacked Hallowvale. You're also assuming they started out in Viggora's Folly (named as such because it sank into the swamp it was built on). We know the Zamorakians were backed into a corner before Zamorak returned and brought the demons with him and that other gods had already conquered much of the Empire's territory. Given that we know the Zarosians were hunting them down, at least when able, it's less likely that the Zamorakians ended up in any fortress near the capital. More likely, they ended up further north, away from the capital. I'd guess they were holing up in what would eventually be the Mage Arena or Rogue's Castle.

03-Mar-2018 22:50:09

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Judging on Drakan’s untrustworthiness, lust for power and land, I imagine him bargaining with his master for support, something like: "now that we, since that glorious day, have granted you our unwavering loyalty in the betrayal of the Empty Lord, shall we tend to expanding our promised lands? I suggest, as Senntisten is still holding strong, striking at Saradomin’s fortress nearby, while he’s northbound and exposed, wishing to gather our closely guarded secrets, of which we already dispose, my Lord. My vampyres will be able to hold a base from there, and, then I can give you my most powerful legions.”


I could definitely see that, but, again, Zamorak insists that Saradomin betrayed him and broke the alliance, and Saradomin made no attempt to deny this when it was brought up (instead opting to egg Armadyl and Bandos on to execute Zamorak).

03-Mar-2018 22:57:15 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2018 22:57:29 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Melanophobe said:
Anyone who finds Zamorak’s entry into the war a date worth thinking about, should find an answer to the following question: who razed the neutral wall of Zarosians separating Zamorakian and Saradominist territory? The barrier between Forinthry (bordering Senntisten) and Hallowvale (bordering Kharyrll) was a double row - except in one place: Viggora’s folly. Anyone not wanting a border dispute had to bring to bear all their military might and wisdom to keep an enemy from reaching this territory, tightly locking it down. Wonder who got there first. Kharyrll, though, got exposed to "Zamorakians" as well.


You're assuming few participants. There were many gods who once inhabited Gielinor prior to the God Wars largely reduced that number to the big 4 active gods who played major roles in the God Wars. We know Bandosians remain on what was once Forinthry, but that Bandos didn't arrive on Gielinor until the God Wars were in full swing, so some other god could have been there and invaded Forinthry from the mountain range to it's West. We're given little indication as to who controlled the land around Asgarnia or Lumbridge (though the Zarosians at least raided the area around where Lumbridge would come to be).

There's also the possibility of invasion from the North (which would explain why Zamorak apparently retreated to the center of the Wilderness at the end of the God Wars (which could also be where the Zamorakians we initially forced to retreat to when fleeing the Zarosians and being forced back by invading armies)).

03-Mar-2018 23:09:48

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